melanoidin malt

hi to all,

I've got some of this stuff and I wanted to ask you guys what is the best recipe to really use all the potential of melanoidin malt?

I'd really appreciate your comments on this malt from your own experience... Have you ever brewed with it, what styles, what is the highest percentage of it that I can use?

any suggestion is really appreciated...

thans

I use it in malty German styles. 5% or so should be fine.

Per the recipes I have seen it is the only non-base malt in Dreadnaught. I brewed an imperial ipa a couple days ago with it, but can't comment on the taste yet.

400d said:

hi to all,

I've got some of this stuff and I wanted to ask you guys what is the best recipe to really use all the potential of melanoidin malt?

I'd really appreciate your comments on this malt from your own experience... Have you ever brewed with it, what styles, what is the highest percentage of it that I can use?

any suggestion is really appreciated...

thans

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I use it as a sub for a decoction. Try adding it to any german style, like a hefeweizen or a bock

I use it as a sub for crystal malt in my APAs and IPAs. I dont like sweet caramel malt in my hoppy beers. The melanoidin pumps up the malt profile for the backbone without adding tpp much sweetness. I kinda see it as a carapils/crystal 20 combo.

Used a little in my Imperial American Amber (in my recipes section here). A little goes a long way. The taste is very distinctive, strong malty notes. Needn't be limited to use in German styles.

MattHollingsworth said:

Used a little in my Imperial American Amber (in my recipes section here). A little goes a long way. The taste is very distinctive, strong malty notes. Needn't be limited to use in German styles.

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hm, 0,12 kg seems to be really a pinch... is it really that strong?

I used 3% in a 1.045 german ale. I thought it was too much. I scaled it down to 1% and it was better. I guess it depends on how high of a gravity your brew is.

Conehead

ok, my final question - can I use it in hefeweizen?

You can use it safely in any beer which is traditionally brewed with decoction mashing - any European lager, German style wheat beers (incl. gose and berliner weisse), German ales. The flavor and aroma are very distinctive, but use with caution, this malt is easy to overdose.

zgoda said:

You can use it safely in any beer which is traditionally brewed with decoction mashing - any European lager, German style wheat beers (incl. gose and berliner weisse), German ales. The flavor and aroma are very distinctive, but use with caution, this malt is easy to overdose.

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czesc zgoda, bardzo dziekuje za odpowiedz

It's the character malt in my Mojave red. Denny Conn uses a bunch of it in Waldo Lake amber.

Malticulous said:

It's the character malt in my Mojave red. Denny Conn uses a bunch of it in Waldo Lake amber.

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I'd be really interested in flavor profile that is a product of "bunch of it" in a beer....

Would it be cloying or what?

Once i got some red lager from my friend, made with ~25% of meladoidin malt. It was overly grassy. My attempt at altbier with ~15% had similar flavor. ~2% in my marzen and vienna gives only slight hint of bready character, in light lager it's easier to notice.

I've used 10%. It was too much. With some aging it was quite drinkable but not something I'd brew again. It's not sweet, it's intensely malty and very bold. It's hard to describe. It's a background flavor in a well crafted Marzen. Waldo lake is 4%. My Mojave red is 2%.

Very informative thread! I'll be using melanoidin for the first time this weekend, in a Dortmunder lager. About 5%. I'll be sure to let y'all know how it works.

400d said:

hm, 0,12 kg seems to be really a pinch... is it really that strong?

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Oops! Missed this!

Yes, it really is that strong. Have you used it yet? It's unmistakable in that beer, very unique character. Sure I could have safely used more but I can't imagine that you'd need to use very much. That was 1.71%.

Great info here! I've used melandolin in a couple beers, but mostly due to it being in recipies I was copying.

Now I know what I'm putting in there!

Is there much similarity between melandolin and aromatic?

I've been researching pilsner recipes (I should soon have a basement fridge I can devote to lagering) and noticed most of them involved decoction. After a great deal of researching/googling decoction, I've decided I'd like to avoid it if possible and would much rather try using Melanoidin malt. If there's a recipe that involves decoction, would I tack on the Melanoidin malt to the grain bill or should I swap something out?

HenryKDuff said:

IAfter a great deal of researching/googling decoction, I've decided I'd like to avoid it if possible and would much rather try using Melanoidin malt.

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Modern malts are made for modern brewers. Modern brewers (even almost all the Germans) don't use decoctions anymore. Almost all malts available today are designed for infusion mashing. Most of them are made for single-infusions. Decoction schedules traditionally involve extended low-temp rests. With modern malts this will most likely degrade the proteins excessively, leading the poor head retention and body.

Decoctions are most appropriate when using undermodified lager malts. You really have to go out of your way to find these malts, or malt them yourself.

The only time I'll do decoctions with modern malts is when stepping from a low sacc. temp to a high one, like jumping from 150* to 160*.

Great thread..
So I am doing a amber ale I want to blast the Malt up a bit.. it is a ~12lb (6gal) bill that in the past I have used 1lb of carared.. I am thinking of replacing that with 1lb of Melanoidin.. is this too much?
(I will post grain bill separately)

I think it is too much. I used that much once (Wyermann) and I wont again. It was drinkable but over powering. A half pound into five gallons is a lot. I use about a quarter pound in my amber and its quite noticeable even with the 15% of caramel malts.

I use a half pound in my zombie dust clone. It is fantastic. There is a dreadnaught clone that uses more than that and it is great also.

Thanks... I might sub out some of the Mel for some xtal...

skeezerpleezer said:

I use a half pound in my zombie dust clone. It is fantastic. There is a dreadnaught clone that uses more than that and it is great also.

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Do you have the link to the dreadnaught clone, I just had one the other night and it was fantastic

http://www.brew365.com/beer_three_floyds_dreadnaught.php
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=&t=22738

400d said:

I'd be really interested in flavor profile that is a product of "bunch of it" in a beer....\

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Here's an altbier recipe I lifted off our club president, It really benefits from 6-8 weeks of aging. Es schmeckt gut!

7.45# munich (80%)
1.85# melanoidin (20%)
3.0 oz spalt (4.0%AA) first wort
notty yeast

75% eff
mash 152F
og 1.051
fg 1.010
IBU 50

Nateo said:

Modern malts are made for modern brewers. Modern brewers (even almost all the Germans) don't use decoctions anymore. Almost all malts available today are designed for infusion mashing. Most of them are made for single-infusions. Decoction schedules traditionally involve extended low-temp rests. With modern malts this will most likely degrade the proteins excessively, leading the poor head retention and body.

Decoctions are most appropriate when using undermodified lager malts.

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This is interesting point. I actually don't think so, that germans don't use decoction brewing. They are very conservative, like us - czechs. Last times I'm very surprised of malt extract (pilsner malt with more than 80% extract). So in lot of microbreweries here, the brewers decided to skip fosfate and protein rests and they mash up to 62-65°C, cause better foam and body, but i don't have practical experience with it. Anyway, all of czech brewers still use simple or double decoction for lagers. (only pilsner urqueel is brewed with triple decoction)

Ok.. went with 8oz... we'll see
Wonderful smelling grain that is for sure!

cz3ko said:

This is interesting point. I actually don't think so, that germans don't use decoction brewing. They are very conservative, like us - czechs. Last times I'm very surprised of malt extract (pilsner malt with more than 80% extract). So in lot of microbreweries here, the brewers decided to skip fosfate and protein rests and they mash up to 62-65°C, cause better foam and body, but i don't have practical experience with it. Anyway, all of czech brewers still use simple or double decoction for lagers. (only pilsner urqueel is brewed with triple decoction)

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I'm basing that on the breweries that are big enough to ship beer to the States. I've read a few articles talking about how they don't use decoction mashes anymore because of the energy involved. I've also read some don't even boil anymore, they use vacuum devices and heat the wort to near boiling. I'm sure in smaller breweries more traditional methods are used, but I'm not aware of any of that beer making it over here.

In any case, I've got some beers out, being evaluated by a few master BJCP judges and few "regular" homebrewers regarding decoction. I don't want to give too much away before I get all the results, but it should be of interest to those on this thread.

I'm using 8oz of melanoidin and 8oz of special roast in an amber tomorrow.

it's been several months, anyone able to post an update on their melanoidin use? I've scaled it back on my Oktoberfest/Marzen I'm building from 10% to 2.3% based on previous posts in this thread. Curious if anyone else used it in an Oktoberfest?

Malticulous said:

I've used 10%. It was too much. With some aging it was quite drinkable but not something I'd brew again. It's not sweet, it's intensely malty and very bold. It's hard to describe. It's a background flavor in a well crafted Marzen. Waldo lake is 4%. My Mojave red is 2%.

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This guy kind says it well...it is malty and if you use to much it is almost sharp tasting. I have used it successfully as a stand-in for several pounds of Munich in a 5 gallon recipe.

is melanoidin malt the same as acid malt?

worthogg said:

is melanoidin malt the same as acid malt?

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Not even close.

Melanoiden is pretty much the same as Belgian Aromatic, I believe.

worthogg said:

is melanoidin malt the same as acid malt?

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Acid malt has lactic acid. It is used to adjust mash pH in accordance with the reinheitsgebot. 1% of acid malt will reduce the pH by ~0.1.

eanmcnulty said:

Melanoiden is pretty much the same as Belgian Aromatic, I believe.

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They are the same type of malt. It's a Higher kilned malt than Munich malt. It may still have some DP. Briess says that their Aromatic can be used up to 50% so it is close to base malt. Weyermann says their Melanoidin can be used up to 20% as a specialty malt. Briess Aromatic malt is probably more like Weyerman's or Castle's Abbey Malt that was formerly called aromatic. I've used all of them and they are quite different.

JayDubWill said:

it's been several months, anyone able to post an update on their melanoidin use? I've scaled it back on my Oktoberfest/Marzen I'm building from 10% to 2.3% based on previous posts in this thread. Curious if anyone else used it in an Oktoberfest?

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JayDubWill: I'm curious how your Oktoberfest turned out with the 2.3%. Was is too little or just right? I'm trying to target the maltiness of Spaten Oktoberfest and plan to experiment with melanoidin.

W0rthog said:

JayDubWill: I'm curious how your Oktoberfest turned out with the 2.3%. Was is too little or just right? I'm trying to target the maltiness of Spaten Oktoberfest and plan to experiment with melanoidin.

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I actually havn't brewed the octoberfest yet but I did use 8oz in a lager with a 10lb base grain bill (6lb pale ale and 3lb pilsner, 1lb munich). It started off grainy but is probably due to the pilsner malt more than anything. It's coming up on six weeks of lagering, i'll give it a taste when I get home this afternoon and report back.

ok, so my memory sucks. Here is the actual grain bill. This is hopped to 25 IBU's and it hasn't really been carbonated yet. I just put a little pressure on it during lagering. It still has a graininess to it, but it's very drinkable even if a bit hazy. I'm sure it will clear in the keg with a little more time. Again I wouldn't contribute the graininess it to the melanoidin but more to the pilsner malt. It's hard to say what 2.4% melanoidin is contributing here.

6 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 58.5 %
3 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 29.3 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.9 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.9 %
4.0 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.4 %