Softened Well Water........

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Rickochet

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Location
Marion
After brewing 20 batches of very tasty extracts, I recently began all grain brewing. As part of the move to AG, I sent a water sample to Ward Labs to better understand my water profile. We live in the sticks with a single well for a water supply. The water is softened with a typical salt based softener. As you can see from the info below, the sodium is very high along with pH. I really would prefer to not use bottled water, unless it is absolutely necessary. What do you experienced well water laden brewers have to suggest according to the lab report below?

Thanks!


pH 8.0
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 636
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.06
Cations / Anions, me/L 11.4 / 12.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 261
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca < 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 90
Chloride, Cl 7
Carbonate, CO3 15
Bicarbonate, HCO3 348
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 311
Total Phosphorus, P 0.35
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit
 
It is my private well. I have unsoftened well water available in my garage, but it tastes like hard, well water. I recently used the hard water to make a brown ale, and it wasn't too bad, but the water left a heavy calcium deposit on all of my brewing equipment.
 
It is my private well. I have unsoftened well water available in my garage, but it tastes like hard, well water. I recently used the hard water to make a brown ale, and it wasn't too bad, but the water left a heavy calcium deposit on all of my brewing equipment.

But you can't use that softened water, unless you put an RO system after it. It is WAY too high in sodium and the alkalinity is outrageous.
 
The water is very high in alkalinity (6 mEq/L) and is also very hard and sulfate laden. There really isn't much you can do with this water. I'm afraid another water source is going to be necessary unless you install your own RO system.
 
It is my private well. I have unsoftened well water available in my garage, but it tastes like hard, well water. I recently used the hard water to make a brown ale, and it wasn't too bad, but the water left a heavy calcium deposit on all of my brewing equipment.

Sodium is bad in beer and in softened water it is replacing calcium and magnesium that you do want, so the unsoftened water would probably be better for brewing - especially if preboiled. Do you have an analysis of that water?

Otherwise, I have a well and softener too, but get my brewing and drinking water from an RO filter under the kitchen sink. If cost and space are no object that is the approach I would recommend. The RO filter does need maintenance and it is a bit of a drag collecting water 2 gallons at a time, but it is still easier than going to the store and probably cheaper in the long run too.
 
Well they say better is the enemy of good enough and if you are happy with it that's what ultimately counts but some of us want to brew the best beer we can. I am interested to know what the 'perfect pH' is and also perfect efficiency. I assume that means 50 pounds of grain gives 50 pounds of extract.
 
ajdelange said:
Well they say better is the enemy of good enough and if you are happy with it that's what ultimately counts but some of us want to brew the best beer we can. I am interested to know what the 'perfect pH' is and also perfect efficiency. I assume that means 50 pounds of grain gives 50 pounds of extract.

Ha! Whoops, perfect not the best word Great may be the better choice :)
But why so -NEGATIVE - with Well Water?
Or why so Negative?
 
I'm not trying to be that negative. The technical explanation is that calcium is beneficial to the mash, in the kettle and in the fermenter and that sodium is at best a don't care and at worst a flavor detriment. Thus a water softener removes something that benefits the beer in several ways and replaces with something that can be detrimental to beer flavor. It is probable, therefore, that your beer would be improved if the water were treated in a different way. To say what that way might be we'd have to see the details of your water chemistry.
 
Rickochet,

The simplest solution to your water problem is the installation of a reverse osmosis system to remove most of the ions from the water. The R/O systems works better with low temporary hardness water (lots of calcium/magnesium and bicarbonate), and the water after the softener is such water. High temporary hardness water, like you get from the well, causes calcium carbonate to precipitate on the membrane which reduces its efficiency.

Another solution is to precipitate the temporary hardness, most of which is calcium carbonate, from your well water through either boiling or lime treatment. Here is an illustrated how-to: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alkalinity_reduction_with_lime

boiling (there is some info here http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_pH_control#Precipitation_of_calcium_carbonate) would be a good short term solution to determine if this approach works for you. You may want to pick up a GH&KH test kit from an aquarium supply store to test the effectiveness of that method and the lime method.

An R/O system will give you more flexibility, but with a greater initial cost. It also wastes water since you need about 3-4 gal to make 1 gal filtered water. The lime treatment method is the most economical, which is why many breweries do it that way. You only need to get a large tank to treat the water and some pickling lime along with your other brewing salts.

You won&#8217;t be able to lower the sulfate with either of these methods. But unless you are planning to brew lots of delicate lagers, I don&#8217;t think that 90 ppm sulfate will be a problem.

Kai
 
You won’t be able to lower the sulfate with either of these methods. But unless you are planning to brew lots of delicate lagers, I don’t think that 90 ppm sulfate will be a problem.Kai

Kai,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this statement. Are you saying that an RO filter will not remove sulfates? I had my home water tested and had 21ppm SO4 in my regular tap water but <1 in my RO sample.

Thanks!
 
His sulfate is 90 as sulfur so it's 270 as sulfate. That's 20 over the MCL (secondary tho it be) and, unless he is one who really likes sulfate laden beers, he is out of luck from that POV alone. With respect to limiting salts in an RO unit - needless to say as is the water is well supersaturated WRT calcium carbonate and that would ruin a membrane pretty quickly. So obviously he'd want to feed with softened water. Even if he does that, though, there is a good chance that gypsum would be limiting. If I replace all his post softener sodium with calcium I find he'd be limited to 45% recovery by calcium sulfate. As some of the sodium was doubtless replacing magnesium and as most home RO units don't have recoveries approaching 45% this is probably not really a problem for him, however.

No, Kai isn't saying that RO units won't remove sulfate. The whole reason I have one is to get rid of modest sulfate (27 mg/L) which isn't actually modest if you are a Boh. Pils nut.
 
I missed the sulfate as sulfur. Yes, 270 ppm is a bit high and with this RO (home unit or store bought) would be best option.

I have a RO unit for my well water, but mine is nearly as hard as yours. It's pretty close to Munich, actually.

Kai
 
Rickochet,

The simplest solution to your water problem is the installation of a reverse osmosis system to remove most of the ions from the water. The R/O systems works better with low temporary hardness water (lots of calcium/magnesium and bicarbonate), and the water after the softener is such water. High temporary hardness water, like you get from the well, causes calcium carbonate to precipitate on the membrane which reduces its efficiency.

Another solution is to precipitate the temporary hardness, most of which is calcium carbonate, from your well water through either boiling or lime treatment. Here is an illustrated how-to: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alkalinity_reduction_with_lime

boiling (there is some info here http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_pH_control#Precipitation_of_calcium_carbonate) would be a good short term solution to determine if this approach works for you. You may want to pick up a GH&KH test kit from an aquarium supply store to test the effectiveness of that method and the lime method.

An R/O system will give you more flexibility, but with a greater initial cost. It also wastes water since you need about 3-4 gal to make 1 gal filtered water. The lime treatment method is the most economical, which is why many breweries do it that way. You only need to get a large tank to treat the water and some pickling lime along with your other brewing salts.

You won’t be able to lower the sulfate with either of these methods. But unless you are planning to brew lots of delicate lagers, I don’t think that 90 ppm sulfate will be a problem.

Kai

Master Kaiser--After looking at your interesting website, you are clearly the "Water Wizard"! What a tremendous amount of information you provide for the rest of us who are just beginning to grasp the correlation of water between making good beer and making great beer. I appreciate your response along with the others who added to my knowledge base.

After doing some research regarding the ill health effects from drinking high sodium water, I would like to take the best route to greatly reduce it. What brand of RO system would you recommend? I would like to have one that would supply RO water at two locations; the kitchen and the brew area. You mentioned I might be better off adding the RO system post water softener--will the softened water have any negative effect on the RO water?

Advice is appreciated!

Thanks,
Rick
 
[QUOTE[...will the softened water have any negative effect on the RO water? [/QUOTE]

Quite the contrary - if your water is at all hard you must feed an RO system with soft water. See #16.

If you want RO water in a couple of areas then you are basically looking at a 'whole house' system though, naturally, you don't want to waste RO water on flushing toilets and watering the lawn. These can turn out to be rather elaborate (read expensive) as they involve several components beyond the RO unit and the plumbing must be done with non-metallic pipe but they are definitely convenient as you just open the faucet and the RO water comes out. Metallic pipe is probably no longer a big concern as most new home plumbing seems to be done with PEX these days anyway.

I did something similar to what you are talking about for my brewery and lab. The RO unit is a 500 GPD skid manufactured by Titan. It feeds an atmospheric tank (100 gal capacity) and pressure tank (about 80 gal). I designed and built the system myself (and plumbed it in) but even so the RO skid (under $2K) was the tip of the iceberg. If you want small quantities of RO water for brewing and drinking it would be much less expensive to buy two units - one for the kitchen (drinking and cooking water I assume) and one for the brewery. Before putting in the Titan system I used the GE units (from Home Depot and elsewhere I'm sure) for years with great success except that it was a PITA having to start collecting water days early. Pretty hard to screw up an RO system, I'd think, but I'm sure some manufacturer has figured out how to do it.

With regard to the low recovery (amount of feed water that comes out as RO water): The small systems do have low recovery (18-20%) and they have to do that in order to be able to tolerate relatively high levels of hardness in the feed. If you can run softened water to the unit recovery can go much higher (70%) but there is no way to adjust the simple units though you could easily make some mods that would allow higher recovery. The larger systems, as they process and thus have the potential to waste much more water, have the mechanisms to allow higher recovery. I usually run my system at 40-50% (i.e. I throw away a gallon for every gallon of output).
 
This is an excellent thread as my RO system should arrive in a couple of days. I used to brew on relatively soft city tap water and just had to worry about removing the chlorine. I moved and now have a well with extremely low pH water (hence the lime, softener, filters, etc.) and I can say that my beers have been negatively impacted by brewing with this water. That said, my water profile changes daily, so if I could get a water report every morning, I think I could brew decent water even with a softener in the line.

Point is, I'm expecting the RO system to greatly improve my consistency, after I spend several batches figuring out how to tweak on the water that comes out of it!

Thanks!

Shane
 
think I could brew decent water even with a softener in the line.

Point is, I'm expecting the RO system to greatly improve my consistency, after I spend several batches figuring out how to tweak on the water that comes out of it!

Thanks!

Shane

I also want to mention my "thanks" to these water geeks! I made good beer, but the alkalinity was an issue. I tried buying RO water, decarbonating by boiling, and then lime softening. Finally, I just bought my own RO water system for $119.

I'm so glad I did! Now, I can just brew with a clean slate and I'm as happy as can be.

The only beer I mash with 100% tap water is my oatmeal stout, but I still sparge with 100% RO water. The beers are great, and the effort I put into it is minimal.

It's not for everybody, but buying my own little RO system for my brewery is perfect for me.
 
Master Kaiser--After looking at your interesting website, you are clearly the "Water Wizard"!

Thanks. But lots of credit goes to A.J. whose papers made me understand water chemistry on an analytic level. I'm just trying to illustrate the concepts and procedure since I know that the math can be hard to understand and unless you want to write a water spreadsheet you don't need to go into much detail anyway.

As for the R/O system, I have a simple unit that feeds a 7 gal bladder tank. The tank is a bit small for brewing and you may want to get a bigger one. But I can get my 17 liter strike water. The 13 liter sparge water, which I get later, run a bit slow, but that doesn't really limit me. This RO system is in the basement and also feeds a drinking water faucet at the kitchen sink and the water/ice for the fridge.

I think that capacity of the buffer tank is the most important issue for brewing use since you suddenly want a lot of water. Gallons per hour (GPH) is not all that important since the system will have at least a few days to re-fill the tank.

I probably paid about $200 for the R/O system and the larger tank was extra. The system is now 6 years old and I have not replaced the RO membrane yet. But the product water already has now close to 50 TDS. I should get a new membrane, but then again, I actually brew Pilsners with straight R/O water these days.

Our well water has elevated arsenic levels. I have brewed with straight well water since it works well for dark beers, but I didn't want the family to consume elevated arsenic water all the time. That was the official reason for getting the RO system :)

Kai
 
After looking on line for RO systems, most reviews are favorable regardless of manufacturer. To help me in my quest for a trouble free unit that truly works and will do so for a long time, what is the brand of the unit that you would recommend for me to purchase. I am going to order one pronto so once again, sharing your timely recommendations certainly are appreciated. (I know, it's kind of like the Ford & Chevy feud, but your advice is priceless!)

Rick
 
RO system components are truly commodity items and most of those system retailers use very similar components. The most important component is the RO membrane manufacturer. The rest of the components are pretty much the same. The particulate filters are equal. The carbon filters are nearly equal. But the membrane is a big deal. I suggest looking for Dow or Filmtec membranes. Dow is the manufacturer and the Filmtec brand is theirs. I do not recommend buying a system like GE or Whirlpool that use proprietary components. You'll pay extra for the system purchase and pay more for replacement filters.

A brewer needs at least a 3 stage RO system. That means a particulate filter, carbon filter, and then the membrane. I have a 5 stage with coarse and fine particulate filters, carbon filter, membrane, and a post-membrane carbon filter. I don't really think this level of treatment improves the water quality significantly.

A very important consideration is including enough treated water storage volume to fit your brewing and usage needs. I have an extra 20 gal tank plumbed into my system to supplement the TOTALLY insufficient 3 gal tank that came with the system. The treated water production rate is too slow to use for brewing unless you have a big tank. If you are going to only use the RO system for brewing and don't need pressurized water supply, then storing the water in an open tank will improve the RO system efficiency significantly. I suggest including a float valve in the open tank to allow the system to be operated without supervision.
 
With regard to the low recovery (amount of feed water that comes out as RO water): The small systems do have low recovery (18-20%) and they have to do that in order to be able to tolerate relatively high levels of hardness in the feed.

I installed my 75 GPD unit in the laundry room. I collect brewing/fish tank water and fill the washer with the waste water.

So far, I haven't seen any negative effects to my clothes and I've wasted almost no water. I can get all the brewing water I need, fill the washer most of the way up, and 'do a load of clothes' to make the wife happy.
 
...storing the water in an open tank will improve the RO system efficiency significantly. I suggest including a float valve in the open tank to allow the system to be operated without supervision.

I just checked the specs on one of the GE under the sink units. I didn't realize how bad they are. With the pressure tank the recovery is 9.6% (for every 100 gallons run through the thing 9.6 gallons of RO water are produced). Running into an atmospheric tank that about doubles to a whopping 18.8%! I will note that I brewed large batches of beer with two of these for many years. I'm on a well and water conservation is not a big issue in my area so I really wasn't much bothered by this aspect of them. The slow production rate was the killer.

The packaged systems that use pressure tanks have a pressure operated valve that turns off the feed when the tank is 'full' (pressure has risen to the point where the valve shuts). If you disconnect the pressure tank and run the line to an atmospheric tank then that valve does not operate and feed will continue to flow even if you shut off the permeate line with a valve. You must, therefore, shut off the feed as well. Or just shut off the feed as that, obviously, stops permeate flow as well.

Float switches are really a must have in an atmospheric tank system (unless it's located in the basement near a drain). In fact, I recommend 2 NC switches in series with the circuit energizing the feed valve solenoid. This way if anything happens to one switch (it fails, a bug gets stuck in it so it doesn't rise with the water level.....) the other one will still shut the system off and save your oriental carpet.
 
I bought a unit from airwaterice.com today. After spending a lengthy time on the internet and making numerous phone calls, the staff at AWI seemed to be the most knowledgeable. I bought the Extra Duty RO 5 stage unit with the permeater pump and an additional 20 gallon pressure tank. I also purchased a TDS meter for a total of $295. It was shipped today with free shipping. I will keep you posted with pictures during the installation and testing process. Again--thanks for the info. Your wisdom helped me understand the importance of good brewing water!
 
I bought a unit from airwaterice.com today. After spending a lengthy time on the internet and making numerous phone calls, the staff at AWI seemed to be the most knowledgeable. I bought the Extra Duty RO 5 stage unit with the permeater pump and an additional 20 gallon pressure tank. I also purchased a TDS meter for a total of $295. It was shipped today with free shipping. I will keep you posted with pictures during the installation and testing process. Again--thanks for the info. Your wisdom helped me understand the importance of good brewing water!

After a few AG batches with my new RO water setup, my beer has a much better finish than when I used softened water only. I am now using only straight RO water, with nothing added to tailor the water style. Short of sending in another water sample, is there a way to calculate the RO water report? My TDS was 636 and according to my tester, it is now 10!!!

Below is my softened water report:
pH 8.0
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 636
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.06
Cations / Anions, me/L 11.4 / 12.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 261
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca < 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 90
Chloride, Cl 7
Carbonate, CO3 15
Bicarbonate, HCO3 348
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 311
Total Phosphorus, P 0.35
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit
 
R/o filters have different pass rates for different ions. But for your purposes I'd simply assume that all ions are affected equally. Simply divide the starting ion concentration by 63.6.

Kai
 
I would recommend adding 1.2 tsp of calcium carbonate to your mash water since you will need a little more Ca+ for the enzymes.
I would also recommend adding 1T of Caco to the boil if you are making a stout with RO water.
 
onthekeg said:
I would recommend adding 1.2 tsp of calcium carbonate to your mash water since you will need a little more Ca+ for the enzymes.

Ca from water is beneficial in the brewing process, but not necessary. I have brewed with RO water without problems.


Kai
 
Kai, Can you give me more details regarding the division you mentioned in the earlier post?
 
After a few AG batches with my new RO water setup, my beer has a much better finish than when I used softened water only. I am now using only straight RO water, with nothing added to tailor the water style. Short of sending in another water sample, is there a way to calculate the RO water report? My TDS was 636 and according to my tester, it is now 10!!!

Below is my softened water report:
pH 8.0
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 636
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.06
Cations / Anions, me/L 11.4 / 12.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 261
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca < 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 90
Chloride, Cl 7
Carbonate, CO3 15
Bicarbonate, HCO3 348
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 311
Total Phosphorus, P 0.35
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

Rick, I'm surprised with the water result. I see that you are from Marion and I know that they lime-soften their water and there is no need whatsoever to ion-exchange soften. I know the Director and Assistant Director of the utility personally, so I assume you are not on the city supply. Oh well! You should enjoy the RO unit in comparison to your softened water.

Yes, you CAN brew with straight RO water successfully. But I can assure you that it does not produce the best beer typically. There are only a few light lagers that rely on a very clean palate, that benefit from low or no ionic content in the brewing water. In my opinion, having a dose of calcium, along with either or both sulfate or chloride are important contributors to beer flavor. Including a modest dose that is geared for your beer style is a good way to go.
 
I would recommend adding 1.2 tsp of calcium carbonate to your mash water since you will need a little more Ca+ for the enzymes.
I would also recommend adding 1T of Caco to the boil if you are making a stout with RO water.

I would strongly recommend not doing this. Some calcium is beneficial yes but calcium carbonate is not a good source of calcium ion as it is 1) not very soluble and 2) to the extent that it is soluble it releases alkali into the mash which is not a thing you want to do except with some dark beers. Calcium chloride or calcium sulfate are reasonable sources of calcium. Which to use depends on your personal tastes.
 
Rick, I'm surprised with the water result. I see that you are from Marion and I know that they lime-soften their water and there is no need whatsoever to ion-exchange soften. I know the Director and Assistant Director of the utility personally, so I assume you are not on the city supply. Oh well! You should enjoy the RO unit in comparison to your softened water.

Yes, you CAN brew with straight RO water successfully. But I can assure you that it does not produce the best beer typically. There are only a few light lagers that rely on a very clean palate, that benefit from low or no ionic content in the brewing water. In my opinion, having a dose of calcium, along with either or both sulfate or chloride are important contributors to beer flavor. Including a modest dose that is geared for your beer style is a good way to go.

Martin,
Yes we are on well water, softened by a good system and now supported by a good RO system. I supplied my original water report in hopes that I would be able to find out what my report would be now from the RO water. Is this possible, or should I send another sample to Ward Labs? Any info that you can share in terms of numbers & quantity are appreciated.

Also: You mentioned that you know the Marion Water Utility Director. Bill McElhaney just recently retired. His property and homestead adjoin mine--we live out in the boonies, so even though we can't see each others homes, we still consider ourselves neighbors. :)

Merry Christmas!!!
 
Rick,

Yep, Bill and I served on a government affairs committee for the primary wastewater trade group in the state. Bill's retirement surprised me! But I suppose he was ready. Chuck and David are now in charge. I think I had mentioned to Bill that I am a brewer, so he would get a chuckle if you mention me.

With the typical removal efficiency of a RO process, you can pretty much guess that the RO water has very low concentrations and you wouldn't be far off. Bru'n Water has a typical profile that came from my system that uses pre-softened water as the feed water. The Na content of the product water is slightly higher than it would have been if unsoftened water was used. But its not enough to worry about.
 
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