All Grain: What is the advantage?

Bobby_M said:

I figured out that it will take 23 five gallon batches using bulk purchased 2-row, to break even on my mill (only taking into account the pure per-pound cost.

You end up saving a lot more in gas saved not having to drive to the LHBS on a per-batch basis. If you mailorder, the same can be said for shipping savings I suppose.

Basically I have enough grain to do up to 8 batches and the cost is fixed.

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You bring up some good points. I did the calculations on the beers I make most.

My Haus Pale Ale (10.5# Grain, 2 oz. Cascade, Nottingham) costs $7.85 per batch and that's paying retail for the yeast and 1/2# of Crystal 10L. The same ingredients for a single batch purchased at the HBS would cost $17.17 (Saving of $9.32 per batch)

My Bavarian Hefeweizen (11# grain, 1 oz. Hallertau, Wyeast 3068) costs $7.01 per batch and that considers getting 4 batches from 1 Wyeast smack Pack. The same ingredients for a single batch purchased at the HBS would cost $26.17 (figuring 1 smack pack per batch). (Saving of $19.16 per batch)

I also calculated the cost to make one trip to the local HBS. $8.86 in gas, not to mention about 2 hours of my time (I can't just walk in, get what I want, and get out. Nah, just can't do it). So when you factor that, if I were to drive to the HBS for one batch, my Haus Pale would end up costing $26.03 and my Bavarian Hefe would cost $35.05. If it were DME based, it would be even more.

Factor those costs and going all grain and buying bulks starts to provide ROI pretty quick. Plus it's just plain cool to go out to the garage and decide I'm gonna brew tonight.

BierMuncher said:

...Grain Mill - No need. You can have the place you buy it from crush it for you...no charge...

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You're lucky. Most places near me charge to grind your malts - usually $0.25/lb.

Why go AG? I really can't add more than what's already been said. I did extract w/ steeped grain brews for about seven years before going all grain. I lived in a condo back when I started brewing and going AG was tough. But I moved to a bigger place with an actual garage and big backyard in 2000 and could have gone AG right then. But I kept doing extract brews until 2005! After I went AG, I wished I had done it sooner!!!

IMHO, it really has improved the quality of my beers and the flavor variety. I found that when I went AG, I ended up brewing a lot more often, too. I've not been out of homebrew since that fateful day in July, 2005!

And it doesn't have to be expensive to jump into AG. My first set up cost me under $200. The Barley Crusher grain mill was the biggest expense and ~half of that figure. I was able to use (and still do) most of my equipment from my extract days.

Nothing will put a smug look on your face faster than saying to somebody " I brewed this from scratch".
My brews inproved a fair bit although I made some decent extract brews. The price per batch was recouped very fast in my case as I got a mill as a christmas gift, already had a turkey frier setup, so the only things I really had to buy was a cooler for a mash tun and some SS braid from a toilet supply hose.

EdWort said:

My Haus Pale Ale (10.5# Grain, 2 oz. Cascade, Nottingham) costs $7.85 per batch and that's paying retail for the yeast and 1/2# of Crystal 10L. The same ingredients for a single batch purchased at the HBS would cost $17.17 (Saving of $9.32 per batch)

My Bavarian Hefeweizen (11# grain, 1 oz. Hallertau, Wyeast 3068) costs $7.01 per batch and that considers getting 4 batches from 1 Wyeast smack Pack. The same ingredients for a single batch purchased at the HBS would cost $26.17 (figuring 1 smack pack per batch). (Saving of $19.16 per batch)

I also calculated the cost to make one trip to the local HBS. $8.86 in gas, not to mention about 2 hours of my time (I can't just walk in, get what I want, and get out. Nah, just can't do it). So when you factor that, if I were to drive to the HBS for one batch, my Haus Pale would end up costing $26.03 and my Bavarian Hefe would cost $35.05. If it were DME based, it would be even more.

Factor those costs and going all grain and buying bulks starts to provide ROI pretty quick. Plus it's just plain cool to go out to the garage and decide I'm gonna brew tonight.

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Curious Ed, where do you buy your grain from? Those are some good prices. I just bought 50# of pale malt and priced out one of my recipes and came up with about $15 per 5 gallon batch (I acutally do 10 gallons, so double that). I'm going to start buying the grains and hops I use the most in bulk and harvesting my yeast to save costs.

You guys get better deals than I do... I figured I'd save some money going all grain but I can't say I've saved a ton... Compared to buying canned extract at the LHBS it's far far cheaper.

My standard pale ale:

10 lb 2 row = $12 ($1.20 per pound)
1 lb victory = $1.20
1 lb crystal 60 = $1.20
2 oz black malt = $0.10 (eh, I buy a big bag it lasts forever)

1 oz simcoe = $1.30
2 oz amarillo = $2.60
2 oz cascade = $2.60

1 packet us-56 = $1.75

Total: $22.75

Extract version, well, victory needs to be mashed... But I can get extract bulk for $2.15 a pound, it would take rougly 7.5 lbs of LME which would cost $16.13. Net savings, roughly $4.

I'd love to know where you can get 10.5 lbs of yeast, a packet of dry yeast and 2 oz of hops for less than $8... The prices I used above are from listermann's, which is somewhat cheaper than my LHBS and I get free shipping which usually arrives the next day. I've seen lower prices online but usually by the time you factor in shipping it ends up being more.

You should be able to get your LHBS to get you a 50 - 55 lb bag of base malt less than $50. If for nothing else, base malt comprises the bulk of your grain bill anyhow. Buy what you use the most. Plus you'll have plenty of grain for several brew sessions.

zoebisch01 said:

You should be able to get your LHBS to get you a 50 - 55 lb bag of base malt less than $50. If for nothing else, base malt comprises the bulk of your grain bill anyhow. Buy what you use the most. Plus you'll have plenty of grain for several brew sessions.

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Cheapest I've found a 50lb bag of grain for is $40. Then I'd need to buy a mill. That'd work out to $8 for base grain, saving another $4. I'm still at over $18 Granted I could brew cheaper, but I like my beers around 1.050 and pretty hoppy. My pale ale uses simcoe for bittering, amarillo for flavor/aroma and then is dry hopped with cascade. The hops add up, but holy crap does it make a tasty beer.

I'm planting a few jumbo cascade rhizomes soon so that should make that cheaper. I could bulk order hops to save some money, but I tend to brew a variety of beers so I never know what I'll need. The only thing I really make repeatedly so far is my standard pale ale.

debtman7 said:

... But I can get extract bulk for $2.15 a pound, it would take rougly 7.5 lbs of LME which would cost $16.13.

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That is cheap for LME.

My LHBS sells 3.3lb cans for $12-$13 each.

That's one of the reasons I do AG...that plus I like brewing my beer "from scratch".

Course, I'm not much for canned tomato soup either....

BierMuncher said:

That is cheap for LME.

My LHBS sells 3.3lb cans for $12-$13 each.

That's one of the reasons I do AG...that plus I like brewing my beer "from scratch".

Course, I'm not much for canned tomato soup either....

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Yep, same with my LHBS. But you can order it bulk much cheaper, and I generally bought enough at a time to get free shipping. AG is much cheaper than canned extract at the LHBS but not nearly as much cheaper when you can get bulk extract.

Bobby_M said:

I. Hey, a lot of people like it, but try serving one to someone down in Savanna Georgia and you'd probably get punched in the face ;-)

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Nah, we'd just spit it out and ask for water, a beer or a co-cola that's
coca cola for those of you not fortunate enough to have been born in the south

American by birth Southern by the grace of god

jdoiv said:

Curious Ed, where do you buy your grain from? Those are some good prices. I just bought 50# of pale malt and priced out one of my recipes and came up with about $15 per 5 gallon batch (I acutally do 10 gallons, so double that). I'm going to start buying the grains and hops I use the most in bulk and harvesting my yeast to save costs.

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I got mine at North Country Malt Supply. I worked up a pallet order with a bunch of other local homebrewers. We each stepped up and ordered a couple hundred pounds, so we ended up with a whole pallet of 42 bags, each 55#.

Ordering a whole pallet allows you to spread the freight costs across 42 bags, which brings down the price considerably. NCM, then lets you buy hops & chemicals with no freight charge. It's just a flat fee for the pallet plus a fuel surcharge.

They are great to deal with and even will split up the charges so multiple folks can use their creditcards to buy the load.

I'll do it again in 6 or so months depending on my brew rate.

Cheesefood said:

Bier's list will eventually piss you off.

Get a pot 10 gallons or more.
Get a cooler 10+ gallons $20-$40
Manifold or SS braid - $5.00 - $20.00
Weldless spouts: $15-$30 each
Paddle or Spoon: $5-$25
Burner: (Variable)
Chiller: $45-60

For a pot, you can see if the 44qt turkey fryer combo is still available, or you can go the keggle route at a cost of anywhere from free to $350 (depending on what kind you get and your view on keg return policies).

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Just tryin to answer his questions cheese.

I'm on my 11th AG since Christmas with my "list" and I'm not pissed off yet...

Hang on guys......

All you lot doing the Dollar on Dollar equations......

Lets say you have a hobby... Golf maybe.

Now how much would such an hobby cost you say once a week at 6 hours a time?

Now because you brew for an hobby you are saving all those costs.

You should be looking at that in the equation.

It is not just about the cost,

Here it is. AG is cheaper once you get the equipment and control. ex baking a cake from a box or from scrach. Don't get me wrong boxed cake is not bad but moms home made one is better. hehehehe

orfy said:

It is not just about the cost,

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Believe me, I know. I've invested quite a bit to get back in the game and am happy to have done it too. I'm just at a later stage in my life and as a home brewer which allows me to be able to better afford the gadgets and things that go with brewing. It's a very cool obsession that can be done very inexpensively or for those with the mega bucks, can get one of those B3 awsome sculptures.

Me, I'll settle for the Brauhaus first......



Man, I love the rain and we need it, but I need some dry time to get my pad poured!

orfy said:

Hang on guys......

All you lot doing the Dollar on Dollar equations......

Lets say you have a hobby... Golf maybe.

Now how much would such an hobby cost you say once a week at 6 hours a time?

Now because you brew for an hobby you are saving all those costs.

You should be looking at that in the equation.

It is not just about the cost,

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Any of my other hobbies would kill the cost of brewing. Scuba? Ha, after two thousand in gear, it's only about $100 per day. Snow skiing about half the cost, but still more than brewing.

Try owning a Harley for your other hobby. I've got to do a service and change out a rear tire, that will come in around $200 and that's me doing all the work. But Man is it nice down here right now 70-80 during the day and 50's at night.....

Brewiz said:

Man is it nice down here right now 70-80 during the day and 50's at night.....

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I hear ya! Enjoy it while it lasts. A/C 24/7 is still a ways off here in Texas.

uglygoat said:

once you go all grain you'll soon want to start growing your owne barley and hops...

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Say what? Hops, maybe, but barley? I don't think SWMBO would be too thrilled if I plowed up our back yard and planted barley back there!

Still, if I had a small farm....

orfy said:

Hang on guys......

All you lot doing the Dollar on Dollar equations......

Lets say you have a hobby... Golf maybe.

Now how much would such an hobby cost you say once a week at 6 hours a time?

Now because you brew for an hobby you are saving all those costs.

You should be looking at that in the equation.

It is not just about the cost,

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I agree wholeheartly. I still golf however. But in my case I figure I'm saving enough money not buying commercial beer and also having given up smoking affords me the luxury of brewing the great beers I've been producing.

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Try owning a Harley for your other hobby. I've got to do a service and change out a rear tire, that will come in around $200 and that's me doing all the work. But Man is it nice down here right now 70-80 during the day and 50's at night.....
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Yeah, I had to sell mine. I couldn't afford to run both a bike and a car, and well I do need a car. I still jump to the window evertime I hear the Bruuup,
Bruuup, spit, backfire, going up the road. Sigh. Gotta love the shovels, even though I had a evo.

Bobby_M said:

Any of my other hobbies would kill the cost of brewing. Scuba? Ha, after two thousand in gear, it's only about $100 per day. Snow skiing about half the cost, but still more than brewing.

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Oh man, don't talk to me about scuba - try tec diving. Two thousand there doesn't even get you the drysuit.

Hence why I have little money left over for brewing :cross:

Yeah, I have to agree with orfy on this one. It is indeed a hobby and all about having fun. To me part of that fun is seeing how little it costs me to make an excellent product that can literally trump a myriad of commercial examples. It's a blast knowing that you can doooo it!.

In the cost comparison some people mentioned gasoline and I think Zoe touched on LP and natural gas. But if you figure true costs then it takes a great deal more LP or natural gas to do AG. Plus if you are buying LP in the 20 lb tank you are probably paying double the amount of LP in bulk
($4 vs $2 / gal.) Plus the cost to go & get the LP if it's not purchased while doing other business & there is shipping cost if supplies aren't picked up locally. Maybe if I brew for the next 150 years I might recoup the cost of equipt. I tried to rationalize this on a cost basis and finally figured out that all I was doing was rationalizaton. Like Orfy sez it's a hobby I've got a buddy that spend $3700 on a bicycle.

I figure the equipment is the cost of the hobby and the ingredients are the cost of the beer. After all I would be buying beer any ways. Because I'm still buying one recipe at a time and I'm giving away much of what I make and I'm drinking more now that I'm brewing, I'm not saving any money by making my own but I am enjoying the hobby.
I just completed my third brew, my first partial mash. I have ingredients for my first AG. And I'm starting to plan out a parti-gyle stout.
Craig

CBBaron said:

...I have ingredients for my first AG...
Craig

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Welcome aboard. We expect to see some pics. :rockin:

debtman7 said:

...Cheapest I've found a 50lb bag of grain for is $40...

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Ouch. I just got a 50 lb. bag of domestic 2-row yesterday from the LHBS and it was $34.00. I know grain has gone up a bit, but your's seems steep.

But Orfy is right; if I was looking to save money, I'd have no hobbies at all!

My other hobby is model railroading. A current modern locomotive with a digital decoder and equipped for sound can run $200-$300 alone. And rolling stock (boxcars, tank cars, etc.) $15-$40. And I have a lot of both. Plus, a train layout takes up a lot more space than my brewing equipment ever will. And you always want a bigger layout. My next home will have a huge basement with some sort of house on top of it! I once estimated that I've spent ~$10,000 over the last ten years on my train addiction. Brewing doesn't approach that!

CBBaron said:

I figure the equipment is the cost of the hobby and the ingredients are the cost of the beer.

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Great way of looking at it!

You REALLY want an expensive hobby? Try being a stoner. Not that I do that stuff anymore, but a bag of grass is now $60-$120 and will last you a week or two.

My old room-mate was into mountain biking. One of his bikes cost around $8,000.

But out of all hobbies, I think having a kid takes the cake. I think they figure that they cost about $1,000,000 to get out the door.

I'm not really concerned about money, I'm just pointing out that getting into all grain brewing as a cost saving measure is not really the right reason to do it

Cheesefood said:

But out of all hobbies, I think having a kid takes the cake. I think they figure that they cost about $1,000,000 to get out the door.

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A million dollars, hell I just tossed mine out the front door, and it did not cost me a thing.




Just playing

Rhoobarb said:

Ouch. I just got a 50 lb. bag of domestic 2-row yesterday from the LHBS and it was $34.00. I know grain has gone up a bit, but your's seems steep.

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Our LHBS has just started selling 50 pound bags of Rahr 2-row for $24.50, unmilled.

Thankfully, we have a friend in the hobby who lives nearby that has offered to allow us to use his mill.

We've not bought it yet, because we need to work our storage logistics, but we're going to. It's a helluva deal.

Well here is my very fractional 2 cents. I did my first partial mash batch. I did a 2 step infusion, 2 lbs of grain, steeped specialty grains, worried the hell out of myself about everythng. 2.5 hours later I had 3 gallons of wort that I then added extract, hops...etc from a kit. IG 1.044. Same kit from LHBS bought last year IG=1.048, extract alone. Smelled good but honestly Im not too sure about this AG bussisness. Is the actual beer better? I hope so because 5 hours to brew is 3 more hours of time.... and it desnt sound like the beer is necessarily better

You will notice a difference. Although all home brew is great beer, all grain is just that much better!!

IMHO anyway!

- WW

Cheesefood said:

You REALLY want an expensive hobby? Try being a stoner. Not that I do that stuff anymore, but a bag of grass is now $60-$120 and will last you a week or two.

My old room-mate was into mountain biking. One of his bikes cost around $8,000.

But out of all hobbies, I think having a kid takes the cake. I think they figure that they cost about $1,000,000 to get out the door.

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hahahahaha! And that is just at age 10 (age 8 if its a girl).

- WW

SpecialEd said:

Well here is my very fractional 2 cents. I did my first partial mash batch. I did a 2 step infusion, 2 lbs of grain, steeped specialty grains, worried the hell out of myself about everythng. 2.5 hours later I had 3 gallons of wort that I then added extract, hops...etc from a kit. IG 1.044. Same kit from LHBS bought last year IG=1.048, extract alone. Smelled good but honestly Im not too sure about this AG bussisness. Is the actual beer better? I hope so because 5 hours to brew is 3 more hours of time.... and it desnt sound like the beer is necessarily better

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3 hours more of something you enjoy is a good thing right?

Extract is good beer. I do extracts/steeped grains in the winter. Open a can, pour it in and boil.

All grain is better beer...from scratch...more time...from scratch.

Pace Picante is good salsa and I buy it in the winter when the weather is bad...but nothing will ever compare to my salsa made with tomatoes and peppers from my own garden.

More time? Yes. Is it worth it to do something I love to do...to create something I love to drink???

Yes.

BarryNL said:

Any words of wisdom?

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How does making beer at a cost of 20 cents a pint sound for wisdom?

It's a great hobby, but it does definitely have some advantages. If you, say, golf for a hobby you pay for gear and you pay greens fees and you get about 4-6 hours of enjoyment each time you go out. Brewing beer gives you 4-6 hours of enjoyment each time you do it and you also end up with an excellent product that you can use in place of buying commercial beer.

Plus, it's something that almost anyone can do well. That's not true of many hobbies I can think of. I could never be a really good golfer-- I simply don't have the talent. Another hobby of mine is photography, but I'm just not very artistic. Brewing I can do well.

Cost? Well, again, you probably buy less beer from the store if you brew at home, so that's a factor. One thing that someone did mention earlier, though, was that it seems like a lot of people forget about the cost of propane when they calculate. That stuff is getting pretty expensive and it takes a lot of it to do one full boil.

Actually, I would imagine the liver transplant I'm gonna need in a few years is going to be pretty pricy...

I think I am the only person I know that is actually well in front on the cost thing.

I have kept my equipment simple and it's paid for it's self within 2 years including my kegging equipment and I don't drink a massive amount.

I reckon that every 5 gallon (40 pints) I brew saves me £80 over commercial beer.

So the more I brew/drink the more I save.
Now to really keep things on the good side I say I should split that £80 ($160)
and bank £40 and spend the other £40 on me or my beer equipment.


Now if that is not a reason to go AG I don't know what is.

the_bird said:

Yeah, but it's real nice to walk out of the HBS with all your ingredients and change from a $20, versus $40 - $50 for decent-sized, DME-based batches. It may take a year or two, but I'll get my money back.

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Now. Do you really walk out of the HBL with change from a $20?