malty flavor is missing in my beers!

I've been brewing for about 2 years. I do all extract (DME) with specialty grains, partial boil (3gal). It seems like all of the beers that I brew have the same problem. They need to have more "body". I can taste all of the specialty grains that I put in. But they need more body on the finish. My aroma hops and bitterings are not the problem. Do you think that All Grain would correct this? I'm about to do my first partial mash. I was just thinking that doing all grain would give the beer more flavor from the malt.

Use a yeast that has less attenuation and you will see a difference. In all grain, mashing at higher temps will also help this as this gives more unfermentable sugars.

yeah, i usually use nottinghams ale. maybe soemthing different. thats what i use for my brown ale. and it tastes great. just needs more body! haha thanks for the reply

The other thing that can help is careful choices in your recipe. some recipes even add maltodextrine for mouthfeel and body.

Could you post a typical recipe and see what we can do to "fix" that up for you?

I have had the same situation, 2 years into this, I have graduated to all grain, I like doing that exclusively. the brew I do most is a pale ale but I don't think it has much malty flavor i like the malt flavor in bier more than Hops. i had an alt that I like allot from a local brew house/restaurant. I guess I need to brew an alt. My last brew was mashed at a higher temp than maybe normal higher than 152 so maybe that will help. That particular batch is keg conditioning i have been patient and very deliberately not getting in a hurry to drink my latest batch. I brewed it up and let it sit in the fermenter for 3 weeks, then into the secondary for 4 weeks. The brew has only been in the keg with CO2 for a little over 7 days now. I thought it might be really good by mid to late February. This brew recipe is like a Goose Island Honkers Ale. It could be a clone for sure, but I would like more malt for me. less hops.

Oscar,

mash temps at 160 F will get you more body. If you don't want to spend the $ to go to an all grain setup then I would mash at higher temps and see if that fixes the body. I think that malted oats also adds body but I have never tried them.

Another thought is that you are brewing beers that don't fit what your pallet really desires. Don't brew a Blonde when your taste is really for a doppel or porter.

This brew recipe is like a Goose Island Honkers Ale. It could be a clone for sure, but I would like more malt for me. less hops.

Oscar,[/QUOTE]

Less boil time on the hops will drop your IBU's and a harder boil will get you a better malt character.

Have you ever had or made a HefeWeizen? Its German Wheat beer and it has low hops and a lot of character to it. Very easy to drink and makes a great spring beer. The good hefe's will give you the taste of bananas and other spices.

So if you want body coupled with a good abv (I'm thinking of anything that's 5.5% and higher here), you'd want to use more base grains to get extra fermentables to compensate for sugars lost while mashing at a higher temp?

Well, the sugars don't get lost- they are still there. When you mash at a higher temp, though it leaves them longer chained so they are less fermentable. So, that's why there is more maltiness and mouthfeel- those residual sugars.

Still, the OP poster is asking about specialty grains and extract. It IS possible to get more maltiness into extract beers as well. They are some things you can do in a recipe to bring out maltiness. Of couse, style selection is important. A porter with have more maltiness and body than a cream ale. Also, adding adjuncts like corn sugar will thin out the beer. So, even in extract or partial mash, you have a lot of control over this.

I love AG brewing, but I'm not sure that I'm getting more maltiness from it. I think I would continue PM brewing and work on the recipe side of it if that was my goal.

If you're starting to partial mash, try using some aromatic/melanoidin malt and/or a healthy amount of Munich. Those lend a real strong bready, malty character to the beer.

Now, I'm also confused by you saying that your beers need more maltiness, by which it sounds like you're talking about body. "Malty" is really a descriptor of a flavor, distinct from body, distinct from sweetness. They're all related, but there are different approaches to take if you want a beer with more malt character, more body, or more sweetness. For the former - use the grains that I mentioned (or for AG, consider a decoction). For body - use some carapils when you're mashing (or mash higher - but I wouldn't go above 156°-158°), oe maltodextrine (which has no sweetness) for extract. For sweetness, more crystal malt (which will also add some body).

Ditto what the_bird said

In simple terms:

Malty = grain bill
Body = mash temp, certain grains
Sweetness = certain grains (ie crystal), mash temp, yeast attenuation

What makes it complicated is that our perceptions of these charateristics is inlfluenced by many things such as the interplay between them as well as the flavours added by the yeast, hops etc. That is what makes brewing a balanced beer so challenging.

GT

"Maltiness" can also get lost behind the hops. I've had beers that were really a bit too bitter, than after they sat for a while and some of the bitterness dropped out, they became very much on the malty side of the spectrum.

Carbonation levels will also influence your perception of these factors (especially body) - both in terms of "spritziness" of the beer and carbonic acid (which some people might perceive to have a bitterness to it).

Got Trub? said:

In simple terms:

Malty = grain bill
Body = mash temp, certain grains
Sweetness = certain grains (ie crystal), mash temp, yeast attenuation

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Huh?

This isn't very accurate, IMHO.

For instance, I can get body AND maltiness AND sweetness by mashing higher.

Really, the only thing that will fix body in an extract brew is adding dextrins.

I think I do mean body not malty. of course malty is a great flavor to me. I liked an Alt I had this summer. I had never had one before and thought it was really good. made by a local resturant who is competing with a new resturant that has been brewing beer from the first day. Funny enough though, the old restaurant I think makes better beer than the fancy yuppy brew house with all the cool names and labels and yuppy foods like pasta with peanut butter, gag me please and hurry up about it. Da&%&mn. Any way the old school is for me.

Oscar,

I have noticed recently that I have to give the beer at least two weeks in the primary to avoid low body and not to mention off-flavors.

Gregg Meyer said:

I think I do mean body not malty. of course malty is a great flavor to me. I liked an Alt I had this summer. I had never had one before and thought it was really good. made by a local resturant who is competing with a new resturant that has been brewing beer from the first day. Funny enough though, the old restaurant I think makes better beer than the fancy yuppy brew house with all the cool names and labels and yuppy foods like pasta with peanut butter, gag me please and hurry up about it. Da&%&mn. Any way the old school is for me.

Oscar,

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I'm not surprised, experience plays a big factor in good brew. I do not know a lot of brewers that have been at it for a while that brew bad beer. Perhaps, some that have bad taste in beer, but not brewers of bad beer.

Dude said:

Huh?

This isn't very accurate, IMHO.

For instance, I can get body AND maltiness AND sweetness by mashing higher.

Really, the only thing that will fix body in an extract brew is adding dextrins.

Click to expand...

It was simplified for reasons I and others mention. Our perception changes with all the other components. I challenge you to brew a truly "malty" beer from just american 2 row that compares in any way to one brewed with say Munich. You can give it body and or sweetness with your mashing schedule but not true maltiness. Jamil and John have had a few conversations about this in their podcasts, usually with Jamil strting off with "Wellllll"...

I agree that maltodextrin can fix body in extract beers, alternatively you can try different extracts brands.

GT

I look at it in the sense of - I have beers that have a real good, strong malt character (like the APA I just brewed with 3# of Munich) that are neither sweet nor terribly heavy/thick. I've also had some other beers (I'm thinking in particular one that our dear friend Cheese sent me) that was overwhelmingly, cloyingly sweet without being malty.

thanks guys, i'll be trying some of that maltodextrine.

here's one of my recepies for a american brown ale
6.2# plain light dme
10 oz crystal 80L
2 oz chocolate
1 oz cascade at 60
.5 cascade at 20
.5 cascade at 10
.5 cascade at 5
.5 cascade at flame out
nottingham ale dry yeast
og. 1.049
5 gal batch

Got Trub? said:

It was simplified for reasons I and others mention. Our perception changes with all the other components. I challenge you to brew a truly "malty" beer from just american 2 row that compares in any way to one brewed with say Munich.

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If I had the time, I do that challenge in a second. I'd bet 3/4 of the AG brewers on this forum could do it.

Got Trub? said:

You can give it body and or sweetness with your mashing schedule but not true maltiness.

GT

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What?

Dude said:

If I had the time, I do that challenge in a second. I'd bet 3/4 of the AG brewers on this forum could do it.



What?

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Any takers? Brew a Helles with only american 2 row...

GT

I agree with what the_bird said earlier, but if I may... Nottingham is a great yeast. Great fermenter and great flocculator. But compared to other British-style yeasts I've tried (White Labs and even Safe-ale S-04), it comes across to me as being very clean... almost to the point that it lacks character. In addition to what some of the others said, you might try another yeast.

Well, one of the batches I'm brewing next, the EuroPils, I'm hoping to hit "malty" without sweetness or excessive body, so I guess I'll find out for certain. Plan is to use a bit of Aromaric or Munich, do a single decoction, sac rest low, a high-attenuation yeast, and not too much bitterness.

Dude said:

Really, the only thing that will fix body in an extract brew is adding dextrins.

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Or find a less fermentable extract and blend. Is Laaglander still around? A few years back the use of that extract was a common cause for sweet beers with FGs that were way to high.

Regarding maltiness, I don't exactly know what you guys mean with maltiness. There is definately a flavor you get from Munich malt even if the beer is fairly dry.

Kai

Got Trub? said:

Any takers? Brew a Helles with only american 2 row...

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A Helles tastes no where like a beer brewed with Munich.

I'm not convinced that you can make a beer brewed with pale taste like one brewed with munich, though.

Kai

Kaiser said:

A Helles tastes no where like a beer brewed with Munich.

I'm not convinced that you can make a beer brewed with pale taste like one brewed with munich, though.

Kai

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Kai - what malt do you use in your helles, mine is about 40% Munich? I've seen some with Vienna as well.

The latter was my point. The predominant malt flavour comes from the malt used. You can't even approximate a helles or VMO beer with american 2 row as it doesn't have the malt flavour required and no amount of tweaking our mash will change that.

GT

Got Trub? said:

Kai - what malt do you use in your helles, mine is about 40% Munich? I've seen some with Vienna as well.

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40% Munich, even if its light munich won't give you a Helles. This is going to me more of an Oktoberfest or Maerzen. For a helles I won't go over 10% light munich or 5% dark Munich. Even that might be pushing it. Traditionally these beers are brewed with 100% Pilsner malt.

when I meant brewed with Munich I meant close to 100% Munich like you would do for a Dunkel, Alt or Bock.

Kai

Got Trub? said:

Kai - what malt do you use in your helles, mine is about 40% Munich? I've seen some with Vienna as well.
.....

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Whaaaa?


Helles is essentially a pilsner with a bit of munich/vienna and an IBU of 13-16.

My recipe uses 5.7% of Munich and 5.7% of Vienna.

40% munich and your sliding down malt mountain man.

Which I happen to like.

My next APA is going to be:
16# MO
2# Munich
2# Vienna
1# 60

Get around a 1-1 ratio of gravity to IBU using centennial/cascade and a boatload of summit for dry hopping.

(Somewhere around there).

My only issue with even my favorite APA's is that I wish I'd have just "upped the malt" a bit.

the_bird said:

Well, one of the batches I'm brewing next, the EuroPils, I'm hoping to hit "malty" without sweetness or excessive body, so I guess I'll find out for certain. Plan is to use a bit of Aromaric or Munich, do a single decoction, sac rest low, a high-attenuation yeast, and not too much bitterness.

Click to expand...

That sounds alot like what I'm hoping to get from the Helles I'm brewing tomorrow (except I'm trying WLP838). It'll be the first time I'm using the Barley Crusher and I ordered some bulk malt from North Country. They sent the analysis with the malt so I was really able to dial in the malt specifics. I'm using 85/10/5... Pilsen/Munich/Carapils (all German).

Kaiser said:

40% Munich, even if its light munich won't give you a Helles. This is going to me more of an Oktoberfest or Maerzen. For a helles I won't go over 10% light munich or 5% dark Munich. Even that might be pushing it. Traditionally these beers are brewed with 100% Pilsner malt.

when I meant brewed with Munich I meant close to 100% Munich like you would do for a Dunkel, Alt or Bock.

Kai

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Sorry my bad I should have been more specific. The 40% is for a Helles Bock. My Munich Helles is about 6% munich malt.

Traditionally it would have been brewed with 100% local munich malt as that was their base malt. It was darker, and maltier, then pilsner. How close our modern munich is to that I don't know.

GT

Zoebisch and I tasted a whole bunch of Euro-Pils on Saturday and most of them had what I'm tempted to call a "grainy" flavor, and differentiate it from a malty flavor. I guess I personally think of malty more in terms of English styles, Brown ales, etc, or even a Bock - some hints of richness to it. Very different to my taste buds. Our last beer of the night was a new Czech beer to us - Straponamen or something like that. VERY grainy. I am now really curious if they don't use a bunch of UN-malted barley in the mash, or the mythical undermodifed malts of yore. The flavor I got from this beer in particular was very reminiscent of moistened barley seed (I used to do a teaching lab that used germinating barley so of course it had to be tasted).

I'm going to order some flaked barley to try. Maybe that is the secret. American use corn or rice as an adjunct, and the Europeans use un-malted barley as an adjunct (or germinated for shorter than normal, but long enough for it to be called "malted"). As it would not have to go through the malting process it would be cheaper, and much of Europe is better suited to small grain farming, not corn, and certainly not rice (except Spain and Italy) so it would be more readily available than corn or rice.

This is what Northern Brewer says

Flaked Barley. Lends a rich grainy taste and increased head retention, creaminess, and body. Can make up to 40% of grist.

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We noticed this flavor to varying degrees in most of the beers and initially thought, maybe there was a little wheat in them. I checked the label of one of the German pils expecting it to say malt, which then technically could include wheat malt. Nope it specifically said malted barley.

I had been contemplating making some home toasted pilsner malt to use in a Bohemian Pils, but now I'm thinking I will definitely buy and use some flaked barley instead.

I found it!

Jamils podcast on Munich Helles contains a long discussion about what makes a beer malty.

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/jamil.php

September 25, 2006 - Munich Helles
In this episode Jamil and Jon discuss how to make an award winning Munich Helles. Getting malty flavors in beer. Debunking common myths about malty favors versus body.

GT

Got Trub? said:

Any takers? Brew a Helles with only american 2 row...

GT

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Mash high, decoct, add some Calcium Chloride to the brewing liquor and back off on the hops, no flavour additions, use a lager yeast known to accentuate malt flavours.

Im guessing you could pick up malt with a beer made only with 2 row under these circumstances.

delboy said:

Mash high, decoct, add some Calcium Chloride to the brewing liquor and back off on the hops, no flavour additions, use a lager yeast known to accentuate malt flavours.

Im guessing you could pick up malt with a beer made only with 2 row under these circumstances.

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Mash high will increase body - not maltiness. Your other suggestions will influence the perception of the malty flavour so will help. Listen to the podcast and it will clear up alot of confusion about maltiness and body.

GT

Got Trub? said:

Mash high will increase body - not maltiness. Your other suggestions will influence the perception of the malty flavour so will help. Listen to the podcast and it will clear up alot of confusion about maltiness and body.

GT

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I'll download it and listen to it the next time im out for a run.

After reading this thread last Sunday, I decided to put the question to The Pope himself. So, on Monday during the live Jamil Show I asked him to clarify where "maltiness" is derived during the brewing process.

Unfortunately, this was during the doppelbock show, which won't be posted in the archives until the 25th. The short answer though, is that maltiness is a grain derived flavor.