Sour Stout

I'm thinking of making a sour stout, using the Berliner souring method:
- Sour the wort with lacto
- Once sour, boil, add hops, and ferment as normal.

Anyone done anythying like this?

Questions, would like to know thoughts of others.

- Would this be too sour for a stout? Would it be better to sour half the wort and then mix after souring?
- Would this go better with a low alcohol 'light' stout, or would a heavy stout be better.

Well, The Bruery makes a beer called Tart of Darkness, which they call a sour stout, but their stouts tend to be not really have any roast/coffee/ash flavors at all, and instead be sweeter with lots of chocolate flavor. So, not really a stout in the traditional sense. So IMO it's probably more like souring an English brown ale or similar. That's the only commercial one I know of, although I'm sure there's more out there.

Jester King has a sour stout called Funk Metal which is about 9%. What I would do is just brew a stout normally and ferment it regularly then after its done move it secondary and add lacto/sour mix and let it ride. four sourness, it depends on how sour you want it. You can break it up and sour a part of it and mix to your liken. in my opinion with a sour stout I would want too much roast to it, just slightly. The sourness will cancel some of the stout qualities out. I have sour ten fidy and almost puked. It was pretty bad taste like sour milk. Good luck. I might give a soured stout a go soon myself.

DisturbdChemist said:

Jester King has a sour stout called Funk Metal which is about 9%. What I would do is just brew a stout normally and ferment it regularly then after its done move it secondary and add lacto/sour mix and let it ride.

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My plan to sour it first is due to the IBUs. Most souring bacteria will not work in highly hopped wort/beer. It will also produce a beer quicker.

It will only be a 3 gallon batch because that is what I am set up to work with lacto with and keep it warm for souring. Might do it twice, and add some Brett to the second one, and let it go for 6 to 12 months.

I soured the hop-less second runnings of a smoked rye porter. It was pretty good, but I'm glad I didn't make 5 gallons of it. If I were to do what you planned, I'd probably aim for a stout that was malty and low in IBUs, although I've no idea about what ABV would be best. Souring part of the batch and blending certainly allows you a way around the variability of these things. If you go that route, I'd split your batch before boiling and hopping, and probably split it more like 3:1 regular:sour than 50-50.

Calder said:

My plan to sour it first is due to the IBUs. Most souring bacteria will not work in highly hopped wort/beer. It will also produce a beer quicker.

It will only be a 3 gallon batch because that is what I am set up to work with lacto with and keep it warm for souring. Might do it twice, and add some Brett to the second one, and let it go for 6 to 12 months.

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I just mentioned it because thats what I did with my Saison. I took a gallon after it was done and soured it. It was est. to be about 42 IBUs and I had no problem souring it. It just an experiment and wanted to see if I can do it. I thrilled that I succeeded in making a awesome sour. It did take a while but I tasted it often and oaked it and when I felt it was ready I bottled it. There is always more than one way to do everything so good luck in the adventure.

I pitched my house souring culture into two gallons of a chocolate milk stout this weekend. Not totally sure how it will turn out, but the bugs usually give a really nice tart cherry taste and smell, so I'm holding out hope.

For a test, I took a bottle of my Berliner and mixed it with a bottle of Guinness. The sour totally took prominence over the roast flavors of the stout. .... Too sour, and not enough stout character.

This experiment has got to be a heavy stout, and only half the batch soured. As KK mentioned, maybe 50/50 is too much (got to think about it).

Right now thinking of:
- Designing the beer to be about 1.060, 40 IBUs with lots of oats.
- Souring half the batch, Berliner style (no hops)
- Brewing and fermenting the dark grains and hops in a separate half batch. Probably use PacMan (house yeast).
- Mix both batches after 'Berliner' part sours, and ferment out.
- Bottle half, and add souring bugs (some house sour mix) to the other half and leave a year.

Could make a couple of interesting beers.

In designing the recipe, I'd be careful of too much roast or bitter/astringent character from dark roasted malts. I soured about 2 gallons of extra runoff from a strong porter (modeled after Founder's Porter) that was 2% roasted barley and 10% chocolate malt. I used Jolly Pumpkin dregs; the beer is 10 months old and sitting at 1.012. At this point, it's got plenty of sourness and some nice brett funk, but is too roasty and bitter, which clashes with the lactic acid IMO. If I were to design a recipe, I'd opt for using debittered black or a carafa malt to minimize the roast and bitter / astringent flavors. Just my 2 cents.

I broke off one gallon of stout from my most recent batch. I then boiled a little over a pint of sour for a few minutes to kill the critters and then added it to the fermenter right before pitching.

I'm concerned that the pH will be low enough to inhibit proper yeast function and that maybe I should have boiled and added the sour after primary fermentation, but the airlock is bubbling and we will see.

Both alchohol and hops inhibit souring bacterias' functions so I don't think that souring already fermented stout is the most efficient way to go - but I've never tried it and maybe it is delicious. I know that the opposite is sometimes done: pitching yeast into soured beer that has been pasteurized.

Hit me up in 5 weeks if you are curious and I will let you know how the sour/pre-fermented-stout blending worked out.

Cheers!

I asked Jeff at Jester King about Funk Metal, initially concerned about the high IBU of the recipe (it's basically Black Metal Stout that's been aged with souring bacteria). He said they didn't modify the recipe for Funk Metal, rather it just aged for close to 9 months. I also asked about the all-brett beer they blended the first batch with since it was too sour. This blending was mentioned on a Sunday Session with JK when they talk about Funk Metal. Jeff said they no longer make the all-brett blender beer, instead they just pitch new batches of Black Metal into existing Funk Metal barrels.

My guess is that there is quite a bit of Pedio in Funk Metal barrels. Pediococcus isn't nearly as sensitive to IBUs as lacto IMHO, at least it hasn't been my short experience.

I'm currently aging my Funk Metal clone, brewed up the Black Metal Stout recipe and then pitched stepped up bottle dregs from Funk Metal itself. At 3 months in, there is plenty of sour.

The unique thing about Funk Metal, IMO, is that it does retain quite a bit of the Stout character including roast and chocolate.

ne0t0ky0 said:

I asked Jeff at Jester King about Funk Metal, initially concerned about the high IBU of the recipe (it's basically Black Metal Stout that's been aged with souring bacteria). He said they didn't modify the recipe for Funk Metal, rather it just aged for close to 9 months. I also asked about the all-brett beer they blended the first batch with since it was too sour. This blending was mentioned on a Sunday Session with JK when they talk about Funk Metal. Jeff said they no longer make the all-brett blender beer, instead they just pitch new batches of Black Metal into existing Funk Metal barrels.



My guess is that there is quite a bit of Pedio in Funk Metal barrels. Pediococcus isn't nearly as sensitive to IBUs as lacto IMHO, at least it hasn't been my short experience.



I'm currently aging my Funk Metal clone, brewed up the Black Metal Stout recipe and then pitched stepped up bottle dregs from Funk Metal itself. At 3 months in, there is plenty of sour.



The unique thing about Funk Metal, IMO, is that it does retain quite a bit of the Stout character including roast and chocolate.

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Did he share the recipe? I'd love to try it!


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Sleepyemt said:

Did he share the recipe? I'd love to try it!

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You can email them, I've never had them not send back the recipe.

I used[1] the original Black Metal Stout recipe (which is quite a bit stronger than the current BMS recipe) as my base. The side-effect on the sour stout is that it's attenuated extremely well, 1.090 to 1.005 in 3 months... That does make the environment a bit on the rough side for brett and pedio, so we'll see how long it takes to get the same sour as Funk.

1. http://hoplauncher.woxford.com/2013/11/15/with-so-much-funk-in-the-air/

Someone here had a process that I thought might good; especially for a stout where you likely only want some souring. Its basically a blending method. Sour a gallon of wort while the rest of the batch goes through primary fermentation on sacc for a week.
the question is when and what to boil? Pull off the gallon for souring preboil? Then boil and hop the rest. Then boil the soured portion a week later ,to kill the lacto, before adding into primary. I would just hop the larger batch, to keep it simple.

I would get it nice and sour. After a long aging period the roast will mellow and meld better with the sour and funk.

ne0t0ky0 said:

Jeff said they no longer make the all-brett blender beer, instead they just pitch new batches of Black Metal into existing Funk Metal barrels.

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I've noticed that it has gotten significantly less sour over the last year+. Sad, I really LOVED the really tart bottle the first time I tried it.

JoppaFarms said:

I've noticed that it has gotten significantly less sour over the last year+. Sad, I really LOVED the really tart bottle the first time I tried it.

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Agreed. That said, if you sit on the bottles for a while, they do get more sour. I've got a few of the original release, plus more of the next round. I've not grabbed any recent bottles; but I definitely detected more "stout" in the pours I've had out there.

I have a bottle of Boxers Revenge and Atrial Rubicite that I'm sitting on until probably Christmas '14 just to see how they change. Pretty excited.

JoppaFarms said:

I have a bottle of Boxers Revenge and Atrial Rubicite that I'm sitting on until probably Christmas '14 just to see how they change. Pretty excited.

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I was listening to the Sunday Session with Cantillon, and Jean mentioned that the fruit beers only lose fruit flavor/aroma over time. So I've thought about hanging on to say Atrial -- but I think these beers are best fresh.

I've had both aged and fresh Boxers; it's solid in both cases. Honestly didn't really pick up a big change between the two. It'll be great either now or later =)

I took a look at this recipe on your site. The Jester King original recipe cites 60 IBUs, an OG of 1.108 and doesn't mention dextrose. Can you tell me how you came to your interpretation of the clean version of this? Can you tell me the flavor differences you see in your version? I've never been lucky enough to have the Jester King clean version and am looking to brew it. Thanks.

http://jesterkingbrewery.com/introducing-jester-king-black-metal-imperial-stout

najohns said:

I took a look at this recipe on your site. The Jester King original recipe cites 60 IBUs, an OG of 1.108 and doesn't mention dextrose. Can you tell me how you came to your interpretation of the clean version of this? Can you tell me the flavor differences you see in your version? I've never been lucky enough to have the Jester King clean version and am looking to brew it. Thanks.

http://jesterkingbrewery.com/introducing-jester-king-black-metal-imperial-stout

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My original goes way way back to the OG recipe that they shared with Austin Homebrew Supply. It was meant to be a *monster* stout, so it was always double digit ABV, massively hopped (Jeff and crew like hoppy beers) and using Dry English Ale yeast, which for such a massive grain bill can use some dextrose to help dry it out as they've always been a big fan of dry beers.

I've not brewed the posted recipe, but in general I would say it would say unless you're *really* good at getting and I mean really good (85% Attenuation to go from 1.108 -> 1.015, which, IMO, isn't possible with 007 without some dextrose) you're looking at a 1.020 to 1.028 FG, which is going to be a *lot* sweeter than a 1.015 FG, and a lot sweeter than BMS has ever been.

My guess is that since they don't really brew it with 007 anymore they just didn't adjust the recipe to match how it used to be. I've brewed my version about 6 or 7 times and it's *phenomenal*; I usually get between 1.015 and 1.018 with sugar additions, roughly 3 lbs, added one lb a week after the first week. After the last addition, it sits in secondary for another 2 to 4 weeks to fully attenuate and condition. Then it's keg or barrel aged for another couple months.

Good Luck with the brew; I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

I see. So you're hopping it to roughly 100 ibus, not 60?

najohns said:

I see. So you're hopping it to roughly 100 ibus, not 60?

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Yep! EKG works really well at that level.

Thanks! What temp are you mashing at?

najohns said:

thanks! What temp are you mashing at?

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154f

My sour stout ibu is only 30ish ibu. The first batch was amazing and the second is souring right now. I upped the roast in the second. The first is nice and tart with dark fruits.

Great! Thanks again.

However, I guess I am missing something, though I am a relative newby. When I plug your recipe into Beersmith, your hopping schedule is coming up as ~66 IBUs for me, not 100... which is in line with what I'm finding on line for the original Black Metal recipe hopping rate. I'm confused.

Look at your hop AA value. Some of my EKG is stronger. Other factors include your utilization value in your equipment and gravity of your boil.

Check your AA value on your hops. You will need to increase the amount of hops to match the desired IBUs.