Electric Keggle help

conpewter said:

Plug 30 amp portable subpanel into the 50 amp, that way you have a 30 amp breaker. Then use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI to power the brew-rig in whatever fashion you want.

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Ahh, I got ya now.

I think if I were to go this rout I would spring for the GFCI breaker in the sub panel as I hope to, one day, have my own place in which to install it. However I think I am gonna have do some more reading about these type of panels before I get too carried away.

For some reason it just seems like a bad idea to have two breakers wired in series together. However, I am having a hard time convincing myself one way or the other.

psyber said:

LOL is this for my sake or yours?

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Yes.

Psyber-The 30A wiring should be fused so it will trip before it would burn up. I understand that playing with electricity can lead to fire, electrocution and whatnot, but having a 50A plug running a 30A wire is the same thing as a lamp plugging into a 15A socket.

psyber said:

For some reason it just seems like a bad idea to have two breakers wired in series together. However, I am having a hard time convincing myself one way or the other.

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No issue having multiple breakers in series. Just always go high to low:
Service breaker (200A or so in you main box) -> 50A -> 30A in you box ->your stuff. This is how a range works, for example, there are usually multiple fuses/circuits in side one of them. You can further fuse/breaker your "stuff" as well. You only want one GFCI in the series and the further "upstream" it is the better. In my case, I have a 50A GFCI in my main box - but you can just use a 30A GFCI in your subpanel.

Here's the subpanel I have used:



$18 at homerdepot. They also have an outdoor one, but I think putting the panel in a small water proof box (rubbermaid) would be better.

I checked some of these breaker boxes out at homedepot this weekend. I think they might work. My only concern is finding a place to put the relays and microcontoller inside them and having to cut out holes for the heat sinks and USB ports.

The guy I talked to at HD suggested I bolt a NEC junction box to the breaker box. Not sure I feel about having such a massive control box. Kinda looses portability. I am sure there is a better option I just need to look around more.

psyber said:

I checked some of these breaker boxes out at homedepot this weekend. I think they might work. My only concern is finding a place to put the relays and microcontoller inside them and having to cut out holes for the heat sinks and USB ports.

The guy I talked to at HD suggested I bolt a NEC junction box to the breaker box. Not sure I feel about having such a massive control box. Kinda looses portability. I am sure there is a better option I just need to look around more.

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You make any modifications to the box and you void the Nema 4 rating. ie no longer splash proof. You could use a hot tub breaker panel. Comes with the GFCI breaker and everything for 80 bucks last I checked. Not too big either.

Eaton Cutler-Hammer at Lowe's: 50A Spa Panel Kit for Hot Tubs

CodeRage said:

You make any modifications to the box and you void the Nema 4 rating. ie no longer splash proof. You could use a hot tub breaker panel. Comes with the GFCI breaker and everything for 80 bucks last I checked. Not too big either.

Eaton Cutler-Hammer at Lowe's: 50A Spa Panel Kit for Hot Tubs

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Wow, that is almost perfect! Now I just gotta try to find a 30Amp box.

bakins said:

No issue having multiple breakers in series. Just always go high to low:
Service breaker (200A or so in you main box) -> 50A -> 30A in you box ->your stuff. This is how a range works, for example, there are usually multiple fuses/circuits in side one of them. You can further fuse/breaker your "stuff" as well. You only want one GFCI in the series and the further "upstream" it is the better. In my case, I have a 50A GFCI in my main box - but you can just use a 30A GFCI in your subpanel.

Here's the subpanel I have used:

$18 at homerdepot. They also have an outdoor one, but I think putting the panel in a small water proof box (rubbermaid) would be better.

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I have never found a UL approved tag on a "(rubbermaid)" product yet.
To play with safe and legal electrical devices is not cheap.

BrewBeemer said:

I have never found a UL approved tag on a "(rubbermaid)" product yet.
To play with safe and legal electrical devices is not cheap.

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True.

I found a 12x12x6 waterproof junction box at home depot. It should work. It looked surprisingly like the non-UL irrigation boxes on the next isle, just cost twice as much...

That's the box I use as my multi-purpose 120v temp controller. Works pretty well but I could see it getting pretty cramped...not much room for expansion.

Edit: wait, mine might be the smaller 8x8x6

Batkins, freddyb. Yup those were the boxes I planned on using to house my relays and microcontroller.

ATM, the best plan I can come up with is this

50a range receptacle> 50a range cord> 30a GFCI breaker box> 30a dryer cord>water proof control box >30a dryer cord>heating element. AND laptop connected to control box via USB.

Man, I hate all of the separate pieces chained together by various cords. Too bad there is not a way to mount a breaker in something other than a breaker box.

psyber said:

Too bad there is not a way to mount a breaker in something other than a breaker box.

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Well,there's always these:

WMS2B30 Products




These are DIN mount and available in different amps and curves.

Good usage here:



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/control-panel-99717/index6.html

I should have thought of that first. That's a very nicely layed out and designed control box. Basically you could do:

Range cord -> disconnect-> 30A -> SSR -> elements

Off the disconnect you could split into a few circuits actually.

Crap - I forgot about the GFCI... oops. Oh well, but maybe this will give you some ideas.

bakins said:

Crap - I forgot about the GFCI... oops. Oh well, but maybe this will give you some ideas.

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They make them, not cheap but they are out there.
allied has them in 25 amp and 40 amp
Altech Corp. - 15.922 - Allied Electronics
You could replace the 50 amp breaker in your relay panel with a 50 amp gfci. Get a drop in replacement and you wont have to worry about it, you'll be protected before the range and you can use regular breakers from there on. I believe the go for about 100 bucks or less. Thats what I plan on doing. Certainly cheaper than the din rail variety.

The only reason it would not work is if you have an electric igniter for a gas stove, which can cause a gfci to trip, but not always.

Though I am sure some one is going to come busting in here and tell me that I am wrong and posing a gigantic communal risk.

Ground Fault Protectors: NDB1L-32C-32

Found these for $28 each. I guess I could use two of them. Although I am weary of trusting a company that hosts their site on godaddy.com


Din mount sounds like a great solution! Must do more research.

CodeRage said:

They make them, not cheap but they are out there.
allied has them in 25 amp and 40 amp
Altech Corp. - 15.922 - Allied Electronics
You could replace the 50 amp breaker in your relay panel with a 50 amp gfci. Get a drop in replacement and you wont have to worry about it, you'll be protected before the range and you can use regular breakers from there on. I believe the go for about 100 bucks or less. Thats what I plan on doing. Certainly cheaper than the din rail variety.

The only reason it would not work is if you have an electric igniter for a gas stove, which can cause a gfci to trip, but not always.

Though I am sure some one is going to come busting in here and tell me that I am wrong and posing a gigantic communal risk.

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Ouch! yeah, those are steep.

Not sure if the land lord would appreciate me swapping out breakers but I suppose its an option.

Yeah, I saw that one too but I cant really tell if that will work for you, typically there will be a pole for L1, L2, and N. The one I posted is the same configuration. I meant to post the 4 pole one from allied.
Altech Corp. - 15.926 - Allied Electronics

CodeRage said:

They make them, not cheap but they are out there.
allied has them in 25 amp and 40 amp
Altech Corp. - 15.922 - Allied Electronics
You could replace the 50 amp breaker in your relay panel with a 50 amp gfci. Get a drop in replacement and you wont have to worry about it, you'll be protected before the range and you can use regular breakers from there on. I believe the go for about 100 bucks or less. Thats what I plan on doing. Certainly cheaper than the din rail variety.

The only reason it would not work is if you have an electric igniter for a gas stove, which can cause a gfci to trip, but not always.

Though I am sure some one is going to come busting in here and tell me that I am wrong and posing a gigantic communal risk.

Click to expand...

Would there be any problem with an electric stove?

CodeRage said:

Yeah, I saw that one too but I cant really tell if that will work for you, typically there will be a pole for L1, L2, and N. The one I posted is the same configuration. I meant to post the 4 pole one from allied.
Altech Corp. - 15.926 - Allied Electronics

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Wouldn't two 1-pole breakers (1+n) be equivalent to a typical 2-pole GFCI breaker? I have never worked with DIN before so I might be missing something.

No, electric stove would no be a problem.

And, the short answer for the two 1+n gfci breakers is no.

AH HA. I think I finally have a design that will work.
First, as much as I like the din mout setup I think it out of my budget ($60+ ssrs and $100+ gfci breakers kind of killed it).

I went back to home depot for another brain storming session and found this little beauty: 30amp breaker box

Assuming a 30amp GFCI will physically fit this box will be perfect.

Now, in order to keep the controls together with the breaker, I hope to put the either breaker box in entire a 8 x 8 x 12 or 12x 12 x 8 junction box.

So,the junction box will house the breaker box, microprocessor, and two SSRs. The box will also have a 12v DC input for the microprocessor, a dryer receptacle for the keg, temp probe connectors, and an 50 amp range cord for powering the unit. Will probably also add a LED on each of the DC control lines going into each relay to act as secondary indicators for when the relays are open or closed.


As for heat dissipation, I cant decide if I want to add a fan or break down and buy the heatsinks for the relays (an extra $20 a pop ).


So, anyone see something obviously wrong or dangerous with this?

psyber said:

As for heat dissipation, I cant decide if I want to add a fan or break down and buy the heatsinks for the relays (an extra $20 a pop ).

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Go for the heat sinks. The fan won't help the SSR's without them.

bakins said:

Go for the heat sinks. The fan won't help the SSR's without them.

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Humm, well other than the heat sink issue, how does everything else sound? Particularly the breaker box inside the junction box?