Not Chilling immediately After Boil?

So I have been compiling a bunch of IPA clone recipies. Quite a few of them have you cover the pot after flame out and let sit for 15-30 min.

I am goign to assume this is for the benefit or Hops you add at flame out.

Anyone else try this? What exactly would this do? When you add Hops at flame out its considered a flavor addition as opposed to a bittering or aroma addition correct?

Think this would just intensify the hop flavor in the beer?

With the addition of it after flameout and the wort still hot(close to boil) it will def. be more of a aroma. I have never done the hop additions after flameout.
I would try it with less then more hops because you can always dry hop to your liking..

Edit: This is what Hopbacks do..

Many brewers allow their wort to sit for 10 mins after flameout for convection currents to stop, then they whirlpool, and allow to sit for another 10-20 mins for the trub cone to form.

That's your 15-30 min delay.

If you have a delay then that will affect late hops and that is part of recipe design

The flame out hop additions are for flavor and aroma. Some people say that flame out additions give similar results to dry hopping.

What it does more specifically is allow the wort temp to drop so you don't drive off as many of the volatile components from the hop oils in comparison to boiling temps. Letting it sit just helps to extract more flavors and aromas from the hops.

I always add my flameout additions for a long, 40-60 minute hop stand when the wort is approx. 150-160 F. I get better aroma this way vs. adding them directly after flameout.

For a while, I was doing 30 minute hot whirlpools before chilling. Then I stopped and went back to immidiate chilling after the flame out addition. Now I have switched back to doing the long hot whirlpools or "hot stands".
After quite a bit of experience with both methods, I really prefer to perform the hot whirlpool.

There are a couple things you need to think about when designing your recipe before you employ a method like this.

The first thing you need to realize is that when left hot, alpha acids will continue to isomerize and generate bitterness. You do not need to be boiling to perform this action, you just need to be over about 175F. Yes, you get a lot of aroma and flavor from a hotstand/whirlpool, but you also get a ton of bitterness.

Next, you need to realize that any hop you added during the boil has effectively been moved back in the boil for as long as the whirlpool you conducted. To explain, lets look at a traditional hop schedule for a American Pale Ale.

.5 oz Magnum @ 60
.5 oz Cascade @ 30
1 oz Cascade @ 10
1 oz of Cascade @ flameout (and immidiate chilling)

If you took that same schedule and employed a 30 minute hot stand with the flame out hops, your schedule would effectively be

.5 oz Magnum @ 90 (or whatever the max time of your boil is)
.5 oz Cascade @ 60
1 oz Cascade @ 40
1 oz Cascade @ 30

I know that utilization does not scale nice and linearly as I laid out, but I am just trying to illustrate the point that hops in the boil that you intended to add for flavor and aroma will all essentially become bittering additions. You will still have good aroma and flavor, but the bitterness will be thrown way overboard and your beer may not have the balance you planned.

To get a similar bittering effect while using a hot stand, that APA recipe would need to look more like this:

.1 oz Magnum @ 60
.5 oz Cascade @ 30
1.5 oz Cascade @ flameout (and allow wort to remain unchilled for 30 minutes)

This bitterness post flameout is kind of a tough concept to accept, so I urge anyone interested to search the clone recipes for CYBI - Firestone Walker that Eric has posted, and more importantly listen to the podcasts. Specifically, check out the Union Jack episode. You will find that the recipes use 2 boil additions and 1 addition at flameout that is to be left for a hot whirlpool. The quantity for boil additions pale in comparison to the addition made at flameout. Try the method and decide for yourself if you get ample bittering from a large hot whirlpool addition and relatively small boil additions. I think you'll be pleased.

jfowler1 said:

The first thing you need to realize is that when left hot, alpha acids will continue to isomerize and generate bitterness. You do not need to be boiling to perform this action, you just need to be over about 175F. Yes, you get a lot of aroma and flavor from a hotstand/whirlpool, but you also get a ton of bitterness.

Click to expand...

You have the right idea, but you're goal is wrong. Increased aroma and fresh hop character should be the reason for a flameout addition... not added bitterness... and the bitterness would NOT be substantial. For the goal of adding aroma, I found it best to add my flameout hops to warm (not hot) wort. 100-160 F is a good general guideline. But a 5 or 10 minute steep won't get you far. I suggest chilling your wort as quickly as possible to about 160 F, then focus on long, slow-cooling so the flameout hops that you add at this point will give you ALL of their aromatic potential. For my IPAs, I always follow this up with a significant dryhop of course. Even though some people may suggest that you could do one or the other with similar results, I have not found this to be true.

So I think what I will try to do is at flameout drop the temp to 160ish. Add my Flameout hops and let sit for 20 more min. Then drop the temp to pitchable temp.

I certainly dont want to extract any mroe bitterness if possible buecasue my recipie has all the built in IBU it needs and Beersmith adds no IBU for Flameout hop additions.

bobbrews said:

You have the right idea, but you're goal is wrong. Increased aroma and fresh hop character should be the reason for a flameout addition... not added bitterness... and the bitterness would NOT be substantial. For the goal of adding aroma, I found it best to add my flameout hops to warm (not hot) wort. 100-160 F is a good general guideline. But a 5 or 10 minute steep won't get you far. I suggest chilling your wort as quickly as possible to about 160 F, then focus on long, slow-cooling so the flameout hops that you add at this point will give you ALL of their aromatic potential. For my IPAs, I always follow this up with a significant dryhop of course. Even though some people may suggest that you could do one or the other with similar results, I have not found this to be true.

Click to expand...

I think he is saying the increased bitterness will be coming from the other hop additions that have now been isomerizing (?) longer b/c of the hop stand.

jfowler1 said:

For a while, I was doing 30 minute hot whirlpools before chilling. Then I stopped and went back to immidiate chilling after the flame out addition. Now I have switched back to doing the long hot whirlpools or "hot stands".
After quite a bit of experience with both methods, I really prefer to perform the hot whirlpool.

Click to expand...

What made you switch back? Did you try both ways with the same beer and just like the hop stand method beer better?

I simply liked the results of the hot whirlpool method better.

I found the hop flavor was more rounded, and I felt I was getting a better use of those flame out hops. To say you don't get substantial bitterness in the whirlpool is incorrect. For example, Jamil now uses nothing but whirlpool hops in his commercial example of Evil Twin, and I believe his beer has been measured to about 45 IBU. I'd call that pretty substantial. In fairness, the earlier poster was right in saying that at 160F you are below the point of isomerization, so there will be virtually no bitterness gained at that point in his suituation.

However, if it is aroma you are after, the dry hop is where you get it, not in late additions. I believe a great deal of that aroma you worked to add is blown off during active fermentation, so for my money, I'll load up on the dry hop for aroma.

It also depends on the amount of hops you add...

4.00 oz. at 10 minutes may yield 140 IBUs

1.25 oz. at 60 minutes may yield the same 140 IBUs

jfowler1 said:

To say you don't get substantial bitterness in the whirlpool is incorrect. For example, Jamil now uses nothing but whirlpool hops in his commercial example of Evil Twin, and I believe his beer has been measured to about 45 IBU. I'd call that pretty substantial. In fairness, the earlier poster was right in saying that at 160F you are below the point of isomerization, so there will be virtually no bitterness gained at that point in his suituation.

Click to expand...

How do you then calculate the IBUs using BeerSmith?

coypoo said:

How do you then calculate the IBUs using BeerSmith?

Click to expand...

Well...you don't.

Formulas are very flawed - let me show you why.

6 Gallon IPA Recipe
70% efficiency, Rager for bitterness

15 lbs 2-row
1 lb C40
1 oz magnum @60
.5 oz Centennial @30
1 oz Centennial @10
1 oz Centennial @1
WLP001

7.1% ABV (good)
1.015 FG (good)
8 SRM (good)
89 IBU (too hoppy for style - IPA style range is 40-70)

Why change the recipe to fit the style when you can just change the bittering formula?

6 Gallon IPA Recipe
70% efficiency, Tinseth for bitterness

15 lbs 2-row
1 lb C40
1 oz magnum @60
.5 oz Centennial @30
1 oz Centennial @10
1 oz Centennial @1

7.1% ABV (good)
1.015 FG (good)
8 SRM (good)
69 IBU (good)

Now my IPA is to style!

That rant is not very helpful, but it does make a point.

So to be more helpful (like I mentioned in an earlier post) if you want to use long hot whirlpools but still want to come up with some type of IBU number through a formula to speak in a language you are used to, enter your recipe into a program, then increase the minutes of each hop addition by the length of the whirlpool you are doing.

So if your recipe was:
1 oz at 60
.5 oz at 30
1 oz at 10
1 oz at 1

but you want to use a 30 minute whirlpool,

change the calculation to:
1 oz at 90
.5 oz at 60
1 oz at 40
1 oz at 11

You will see the bitterness calculation you typically use skyrocket, and honestly, if you brewed the same recipe twice, once with chilling at zero, once with long hot whirlpool, you'll notice the effort with the long hot whirlpool will taste dramatically more bitter....no matter what the number on the recipe says. For that reason, I say that if you are going to employ a long hot whirlpool (hot being around 200F), roll back the quantities on those first couple additions, and just taste how much bitterness the long whirlpool gives you.

I get all that, I thought you were saying the whirlpool additions gave you a lot of bitterness

What if one were to remove the boil hops via hop sock, then chill to 100 - 150 and add flameout hops for hop stand?

Wouldn't the removing the bittering, flavor, and aroma additions decrease or stop the isomerization?

I have to believe that isomerization is slower after flameout/during the whirlpool, but it still happens. It's aided by boiling as insoluble alpha acids become solubilized by the convection currents of boiling and then isomerized (made bitter) by the heat and pH. I would say removing the kettle hops after flameout may help depending on how long you hopstand and if the wort was moving (whirlpool). Commercial-sized breweries have reported 15-22% utilization in a 60 minute whirlpool but I'd bet its smaller in a 5 gallon batch.

I have done a couple whirlpool/hopstands myself and believe I have gotten a bit more bitterness (5-10 IBU) but these were all pale ales on the bitter side anyway and were dryhopped, which masked any aromatic contribution of this technique. What I did notice though was all the hop aroma leaving my primary fermenter!