Drink of the Nativity

This will be my Christmas beer

Drink of the Nativity

5 Gallon Batch

Full boil:

4lbs Rice Syrup Solids
1lb D-45 Candi Syrup
8 oz Molasses
1 oz centennial hops

In a separate pot bring 1lb of honey to boil and add:
2 TBSP candied ginger
¼ teaspoon ground cloves
3 cinnamon sticks
2 teaspoon of allspice
1/8 teaspoon of nutmeg
1/8 teaspoon ground black pepper
Zest of 1 orange

Boil all of this for the duration of the full wort boil

At 5 minutes left add .5oz Hallertau

At full hour turn heat off. Remove cinnamon sticks from the honey-seasoning mix and pour this into the wort. Stir to dissolve.

Pitch S-33 yeast and dry hop 1oz Saaz

I will bottle this with ½ cup of maple syrup.

I’m going to use brown sugar for the pumpkin dubbel instead of maple syrup.

I've bottled with maple syrup before and it was horrible, but that was with sorghum. Recommend bottling half of your batch with corn sugar.

Why risk bottling with maple syrup? If you think it will go well in the beer, add it to secondary or something.

I primed with honey once. Of course it worked, but I didn't gain anything that wouldn't have been gained in secondary. And it carbed slower. So what was the point?

I guess I just did it to do it. But I outgrew that phase. Now I try to make additions that actually make some logical sense.

Any other feedback or thoughts? This is a combination of 3 recipes so I figure it could either be very good or very bad.

ChasidicCalvinist said:

Any other feedback or thoughts? This is a combination of 3 recipes so I figure it could either be very good or very bad.

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It looks good to me but I'm not experienced with spices. The choice of centennial hops for bittering is interesting. I'd be more likely to use a hop like hallertauer or magnum.

Let us know how it goes.

I'd keep the allspice in line with the other spices, personally. It can have a strong flavor. Out of curiosity, why are you adding the spices to the honey, rather than the wort?

The centennial and bottling with maple syrup both came from the Brooklyn Brewshop's Christmas recipe. The dry hop of Saaz came from another source for a winter ale. And boiling the honey with the spices in it and then pouring that into the wort came from a third recipe. I either liked the elements or found them intriguing so I combined all of them, and added my own touch, into this recipe. The result will either be, I think, awesome or really bad.

Oh wait. You forgot the malt!!!!

I'm not even sure brewers yeast would be the right choice for this. What kind of flavor profile are you envisioning here? It certainly doesn't sound like it will be beer-like. It sounds more like a Christmas version of something like Mike's Hard Lemonade (or other malt liquor).. Maybe just make a nice liqueur instead? That'd be way more likely to be successful than a maltless beer.

Or you might consider practicing just making a neutrally-flavored fermented beverage before going crazy with the spices in this recipe. It certainly won't be beer-like and, using normal beer ingredients beyond that, I frankly have some questions about its drinkability...

But hey, if it's just an experiment, it WILL be interesting. But then, fermenting Mountain Dew is interesting too.

I think you might want to rethink doing this. It just sounds like a sugar and spice bomb with no malt. You might be thinking it will taste like a delicious cookie, but it reminds me of something little kids put together when their parents are away (gummy worms, peanut butter, sugar, syrup, chocolate chips, more sugar, kool-aid... you get the idea).

In all honesty, I'm not trying to be a jerk. That's just what it reminds me of. I know you are going for something with all of those flavors, but without anything to be a conduit to those flavors (malt), you might be in for a big disappointment.

There's no malt because it's meant to be gluten free, I believe.

I agree that the allspice sounds a little heavy, and possibly even the cinnamon? If you prepared a spice tea to add before bottling, you could do it to taste, and be a bit safer. I bet you could add more ginger, too (maybe just grate/juice some fresh ginger)?

That's a lot of spices. Be careful with the allspice, and ground cloves are really really strong.

your going to boil 1 pound of straight honey? is this possible and even if it is your going to destroy all flavor and carmelize the sh*t out of it. i would add @ flameout and throw the spices in at 15min left in the boil

ong said:

There's no malt because it's meant to be gluten free, I believe.

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I believe NB sells a glue free LME. As the recipe sits now, there us nothing there that really need to be boiled for more than 10 or 15 mins. And without any malt, it won't be very beer like at all. Nor will it be remotely sweet. It will probably ferment out to be more wine-like.

Maybe look at farm wine recipes to get flavor ideas instead of beer.

Dudes--Johnny Hitch and Sir Humpsalot, this is the gluten-free forum. With all due respect, I don't think you guys really know what you're talking about, and you probably shouldn't be trying to offer advice here. As someone with lots of experience brewing gluten-free (read: actually using the ingredients mentioned in the recipe), I can say with certainty that both your are comments off the mark, though it's clear they were well-intentioned. Rice syrup + candi syrup ferments out to be actually a lot more beer-like than either of you would expect, and this is definitely not going to come out "wine-like", or cider-like, or mead-like. It might not taste exactly like you'd expect from a barley-based beer, but it's for dang sure gonna be closer to beer than to anything else.

Furthermore, ChasidicCalvinist is boiling the honey to caramelize it, as in making brochet mead--look it up, he's not doing it for no reason! And the hour-long boil of the wort is necessary to extract the desired bitterness from the centennial hops, as you should know, since hop utilization translates exactly the same to gluten-free brewing. I think you would both be very surprised if you could taste the finished product! I hope ChasidicCalvinist does not take your advice, and I hope you guys will try to refrain from giving advice to people when you don't know what you're talking about, because there's a chance they might actually take your advice and end up making bad decisions because of it. Sorry if this is coming off offensively, I don't mean to be a dick. RDWHAHB and maybe stick to the regular brewing forums!

Hmph. Oops. I'm still getting used to the HBT app. I actually didn't notice that this was the Gluten-Free forum.

Nevertheless, I think that this would be better suited to a country wine type of yeast and a wine-type of recipe. I do disagree that the recipe will be more beer-like than country wine. Have you seen some of the old recipes that homestead housewives have concocted to get a little liquor flowing in the house? I'm not talking grapes here.. I'm talking anything that's fermentable! And they wound up with some (reportedly) drinkable booze.

Actually, come to think of it, I've had several samples of wines that made use of sugar for a large percentage of fermentables. No, they were not your fine dining $100 bottle wines, but they actually did taste quite good. I even bought a couple of them! So I certainly do recognize that sugar (candi, dextrose, sucrose, table, whatever) can be used to make a fine fermentable beverage. However...

Even without barley, the basic science of fermentation and the basic rules of taste haven't changed. I would still include some grains that will lend both flavor and texture... be it sorghum, oats, whatever if the OP is genuinely going for a beer-like flavor and texture. I just don't think rice solids will lend any appreciable body. And otherwise, you're talking about pretty close to a sugar wash, which is much closer to what you see in farmhouse wines where often and commonly half or more of the fermentables are just sugar. So I still question the suitability of a beer yeast for this particular recipe. You won't even have any significant Free Amino Nitrogen (aka FAN)... so that'd be a recipe for a stuck fermentation right there.

I stand by my previous statements. This would be better done with wine in mind, than with beer. I mean, even mead makers don't use beer yeast often. They lean towards wine yeasts for several reasons (as a generality, of course, not as a rule). So yeah, I still question the wisdom of this recipe, as designed, for the purpose of making beer.... Which isn't to say you couldn't chill it, carbonate it, and have a tasty beverage...

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I can say I have made beers with VERY similar grist and have had friends say they can't tell the difference between my beers and any other micro/nanobrewed IPA.

We are brewing GF. Which means we are constantly testing and experimenting, and we have found (through real experience) that some of the old conventional wisdoms either just don't apply or were just simply wrong to begin with.

So, thanks for your well meaning advice, but we're doing just fine over here with our winey beers.

P.S. I didn't mean to imply you are an inexperienced brewer. For all I know you are the brewmaster at Sam Adam's, but it appears from your advice that you do not have experience with these ingredients.

Well said, dude.

@Sir Humpsalot, I've done beers that are 95% rice syrup and maybe 5% honey, and nothing else in terms of fermentables. They taste usually even more beer-like than beers made with sorghum, but you are correct that they lack a bit in the body department. It is definitely a grain flavor, though! A bit one-dimensional, not perfect by any means, but also not far off from your run-of-the-mill light/pilsner LME. The caramelized honey and the molasses in ChasidicCalvinist's recipe will both take care of the body, I can assure you of that. And considering that in spice beers, the malt is not typically super-forward in the flavor profile, I think he's definitely on the right track.

At one time in this country, it was common to make beer--and yes, they called it beer, or at least ale--from hops and molasses, with no malt at all. And historically, ale could encompass many ingredients no longer used today, and could omit hops and barley entirely. I've seen historical recipes for beer that call for nothing but sugar and nettles, with a little yeast floated on a piece of toast. Time was, root beer and ginger beer were indeed "beer", i.e. they were fermented and slightly alcoholic. It's really only post-prohibition that we in the U.S. adhere to such a conservative Germanic idea of what we can call "beer", you'd almost think that we ratified the Reinheitsgebot when we passed the 21st amendment! But if you want to be historically-accurate, any fermented beverage with some kind of non-fruit sugar source and some kind of bittering herb, ranging from maybe 0-13% ABV (more in modern times, thanks to the boys at BrewDog and Sam Adams), served sparkling and chilled, is a beer. Wines are distinguished usually by alcohol content, not sugar source--hence "barley wines" and "rice wines". Cider and mead are the two main drinks distinguished by sugar source alone--all ciders are made from fruit, period, and all meads must contain honey, period. But beers and wines are far less restrictive, or at least have been less restrictive historically. But in any case I don't see the sense in calling a fermented beverage flavored with hops and with the majority of fermentable sugars derived from a grain (in this case, rice) a "wine"!

If you haven't read them, I'd recommend reading Randy Mosher's "Radical Brewing" and Stephen Harrod Buhner's "Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers". They will enlarge your conception of what a beer can be!

I have read Radical Brewing. I didn't mean to be dismissive with the wine comment. It was intended to suggest an alternative source for more similar recipes than the typical beer sources.

If I was going to brew something very light on malt type grains (and GF), I would seek out mead and country wine recipes for inspiration more than beer sources. That's all I was trying to get at and I think it's a pretty common-sense recommendation because the info on a lot of the spices and whatnot is already out there in those circles.

I know where you're coming from, mate, believe me, I get advice like this from just about every regular brewer I meet. Everyone's suggestion is to forget trying to make something beer-like and make a mead or a cider or even a sake. These are all considered "legitimate" forms of booze by most people, while gluten-free beer is considered either a novelty, a poor substitute for the real thing, or even an oxymoron. Gluten-free brewing is basically the Paralympics of beer, except that normal people are finally starting to take the Paralympics seriously. If we wanted to make mead or country wine, that's what we'd do, and a lot of us do brew that stuff, too. But the reason we're all in this forum, instead of the mead forums or the wine forums or whatever, is because we miss beer (or are close to someone who misses beer). There is probably a greater range of flavor possible with beer than with any other beverage, and you probably totally take for granted what a luxury it is to have access to that. And one of the things beer can be is sweet, high-alcohol, and generously spiced. See for instance Anchor's Christmas Ale. Just because a guy throws some spices and honey in the recipe, doesn't mean he's trying to make country wine!

Put yourself in our shoes--what would YOU do if you found out you could never drink regular "real" beer ever again? Would you be happy drinking "country wine" for the rest of your days? Would you take it lying down if someone told you you could never have another hefeweizen or IPA or stout ever again?

igliashon said:

Put yourself in our shoes--what would YOU do if you found out you could never drink regular "real" beer ever again? Would you be happy drinking "country wine" for the rest of your days? Would you take it lying down if someone told you you could never have another hefeweizen or IPA or stout ever again?

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Honestly? I wouldn't make a spiced beer. Because in general, I can't stand them! LOL

So see? We have this double-disconnect because I don't see the recipe as being very beer-like due to the lack of grains, and because you are spicing it up... which I generally detest.

But as I type this, I am drinking my own Oatmeal Cookie Ale with oats, cinnamon, vanilla, and candi sugar. So for someone who doesn't like spiced ales, I suppose I'm doing a really poor job of proving it.

And of course, I say to each their own. I'm not going to look at your recipe and say it looks bad just because it's not something that I would brew. Part of being a connosieur without being a snob, is being able to taste things you don't like and appreciate them for what they are, find places for them. One of my favorite personal attributes is the ability to recommend things I don't like to people, and have them really dig it. When you understand something, and you drop your ego and preconceptions, it's possible to do this and it's really cool. And honestly, I read the recipe you posted from that standpoint.

Like I said, I didn't realize it was in the Gluten-Free forum. Could you imagine if any of a hundred other HBT members had made the same mistake? They would have accused you of making hooch and mocked you! Me, I looked at the recipe, thought about it a bit, and came to the conclusion that it would probably be seriously lacking in any appreciable grain-like quality.

And as a matter of fact, I just tasted my first beer made (partly) with rice solids a couple of days ago. So I actually do understand what that lends to a beer and I don't think the flavor is necessarily bad. But as I said from the beginning, and as I will say again to answer your question...

What would I do in your shoes?

Well, I suppose wouldn't brew a spiced ale because I don't like them. But, if for some reason I wanted to, then I would add some grains and malt and make a few other changes as well... so...

First, I would add some quick oats to increase the mouthfeel and body,

Second, I'd toss out the candied ginger and use fresh grated ginger, probably no more than about 1 TBSP though. Fresh is better. Candied just brings more weird ingredients into the mix. I prefer knowing what's in my beer.

Third, I'd use a quality ground cinnamon in place of the sticks as it will provide better utilization in your recipe. I'm not talking about "grocery store cinnamon" though. Go to thespicehouse.com, or penzeys.com and get a quality freshly ground cinnamon instead. Or... if you insist on starting with sticks, get a small whirly-chopping coffee grinder and just grind it yourself before adding it to your beer. However, you go, you'll get more repeatable results. With a one hour steep, you simply won't get a predictable level of extraction from the whole sticks as you will from the ground spice. As for quantity, I'd use 1.5 TBSP if you are shooting for "cinnamon-forward, but still balanced", or 2 TBSP would still be okay for a darker beer, or for something that's going to age a bit longer than usual. You could also add it to your primary instead to ensure you aren't leaving anything in the kettle.

Fourth, I would bottle with dextrose because it is 100% predictable. If I thought maple syrup would be good in the beer, I would add it in the boil, or in the primary. Crazy bottle-conditioning schemes (honey, syrup, agave nectar, etc) are fun and interesting for the newb, but in general are only worth their value as a conversation piece. The flavor difference between bottling vs adding to primary or secondary is not appreciable and really isn't worth the risk of under/over-carbing from a QC standpoint.

Fifth, I would use chestnut chips. The first reason is that reportedly these are a good malt alternative. The second reason is that this is a Christmas beer and who doesn't associate Christmas with chestnuts roasting on an open fire? I mean, that's just too easy of a connection to pass up.... especially when it's one of the most highly-touted alternatives right now in GF brewing.

Ok... that's all I can think of for now. You asked what I would do in your shoes, and there you have it. I still say the recipe is very week on grains. Maybe add some oats and even toast some oats in your oven too... for a bit more of that grain flavor.


But with all that said, this is coming from somebody who doesn't know a lot about GF brewing... I just really really like beer in all its shapes and sizes and colors. If I came off as a snob, it wasn't intended. Like I said, before I realized I was in the GF forum, it just seemed like a questionable recipe for a style of beer I generally don't care for. But that's not to say we couldn't brew a good one...

A few (closing) thoughts and then I'm done with this thread...there is a tremendous difference between criticism and critical feedback. Sir H., you have finally transitioned from criticism to critical feedback and I want to acknowledge that and thank you. Though you may not have intended to be a "snob" or "dismissive" you and a few others' posts were quite harsh and lacking in anything actually helpful.

That being said, I made a mistake inputting my recipe that may have eliminated much of this discussion. I type my recipes into word and copy/paste them here so perhaps I didn't "highlight" the key ingredient of 5 pounds of oats. Those will be steeped prior to boiling. However they were left out, I apologize for that oversight.

The candied ginger and maple syrup for bottling, despite repeatedly being told these (really the maple syrup) are "newb" mistakes, or an illogical "phase" that I will eventually "outgrow", or even the type of thing "little kids throw together when their parents are away"; these suggestions were taken directly from the same recipe in the Brooklyn Brew Shop's Beer Making book. The only "newb" mistake I have made is following the advice of successful micro-brewers and published authors. Shame on me.

That being said, I currently have a maple syrup cider bottled and it tastes amazing. The maple syrup flavor was added at bottling time. I also have a number of bottles of Acerglyn, I'm assuming it is known what that is, which also taste amazing. Both require additions of maple syrup at different times, including bottling, and have turned out great. So my experience thus far, young novice that I still am, seems to be that maple syrup works quite well in other of fermented beverages. Granted, neither of those are beers. But I will take the advice received and add it prior to bottling. I think I'll rack onto the maple syrup. So thank you for that feedback.

Chestnut Chips seem to be generating a lot of buzz, I agree. While having heard much positive I have also heard much negative about the beers made from chestnut chips from those who have tried them. Alas, at 30 bucks for 5lbs, I'll most likely never know.

@ChasidicCalvinist, I know you said you were done with this thread, but I have a quick off-topic question for you:

You said that you'd heard much negative about chestnut chips. Apart from the price (which I agree is very steep), and the 24 hour mash (which is a huge PITA) what are the negatives? I've only used them once, and I had good results, and I hadn't seen much negative when I did a search, so I'm curious as to others' experiences.

@Sir Humpsalot, thank you for giving some good critical feedback.

@frothdaddy--I've never used chestnuts myself, but I've had all of the Harvester beers (a gluten-free brewery out of Portland that makes all their beers with a combo of sorghum extract, GF oats, cane sugar, and roasted chestnuts), and I thought they were awful. The pale and raspberry ales were alright, but the red and dark ales--which get most of their flavor from the roasted chestnuts--had an ashy, tobacco-like taste that I couldn't stand. I know they roast their own chestnuts, so it's possible there's something screwy with their roasting technique. I'm also not sure if they mash the chestnuts or not (and if they do, how successful the results are), but I can say the beers all had a dry starchy taste and a slightly astringent mouthfeel (which was NOT from the hops, which were fairly weak in most of them). My thoughts after tasting them was that if this is as good as chestnut beers can get, I'm staying the heck away from chestnuts!

But, like any good scientist, I have to acknowledge that there are too many other variables to conclusively blame the chestnuts. It could also be the oats or the sugar, or something in the processing of the chestnuts, or even just a bad batch (they're a tiny 7 bbl brewery and may not have a QA lab yet). I've heard good things about their IPA and intend to try it once I can afford another ~$50 to have a sixer of their bombers shipped down here. I also intend to give chestnuts a shot myself in the near future. I have to agree with Sir Humpsalot, they seem like they could be good in a Christmas beer!

I expected to see frankincense and myrrh in this recipe...

Didn't Anchor put frankincense and myrrh in one of their Christmas beers one year?