120v/2000 watt element, how long to heat water??

I am contemplating converting my HLT to a combination HLT/HERMS with a copper coil, water heater element, stirrer and a JC controller. Now here is what I need to know. In a 10 gallon cooler, how long will it take to heat up 9 gallons of water to say 180F? Is there even a way to calculate this? If it takes hours... well, Id hate that. Id assume in a small cooler with insulation that it could heat pretty quickly. HELP, anyone?

It takes one BTU of energy to raise one pound of water, one degree F. Water is 8.3 lb/gal so 9 gallons = 75 lbs. To continue to keep the numbers back of the envelope, say your water is 80deg and you want to goto 180, then you need 7500 BTU's of energy. The typical 35k-40k BTU/hr burner gets the job done pretty quick, but we only have 2kw/hr of energy.

1 kw/hr = 3413 BTUs so 7500/(3413*2) = 1.1 hrs...

This assumes 100% of your energy goes to heating the water and none of it is lost.

You can figure out how fast you want to heat your water, then take that kilowatt figure and divide by 120 or 240 to see how many amps you need. 2000 watts is 18 amps and pushing the limit of a typical household 120v plug. Most of the time they are rated for only 15 amps..

WOW, awesome... 1.1 hours is not HORRIBLE, but it isnt great either. I will have to think about this. It would be nice, electricity is easy to switch and route, alot easier than gas.

My thinking is to remove the kegs mounting base skirt then adding a 6" seciton off another keg to allow for a seperate section filled with anti-freeze with two 35, 45 or 5,500 watt heating elements. This system will need a expansion tube plus able to switch to one element PID controlled once up to temp. This with 230 volt power to make heat vs screwing around with 120 volt powered 230 volt elements directly mounted in the wort. I would rather heat 252 sq/in plus area than a element scorching the bier. Thinking stage so far. JMO's.

Yeah, I am still boiling with gas... and I have thought about a modified cornie as a heat exchanger, since I could fill it with say 3 gallons of water and it would heat alot quicker.

Looks like I am leaning toward a 2 gallon beverage cooler with a 1500 watt element, copper coil and a vent fan motor for an agitator. I will measure the temp of the wort at the HERMS outlet and have that control the coil. I will also set up a thermometer on the outlet of the MLT just to monitor the outlet temp so that I can tell when my mash has reached its proper temp. This is all subject to change, but thanks to Craigs List, I just came into some cash... heh.

If I did my math correctly... if I have 1.5 gallons in my dedicated heat exchanger, with a 1500W element, I can get it from 70 degrees to 160F in about 15 minutes. THEN, when I wish to ramp up to mashout temps, from say 150-170F... it will only take about 3 minutes. Now I have to recirculate all of the mash water once before the mash temp will be changed.... so mashout should only take 3 minutes for the HERMS to heat up, then at one gallon/min. (MAX) about 5 minutes to recircualte the mash water. TOTAL is 8 minutes.

All of my vessels are coolers, they hold temp pretty well, but this will give me repeatability and precise control of the mash temps. it will also allow me to mashout in a cooler. Using the 1500W element should allow me to use a standard 120v oulet in my garage, but coupled with the small volume of the HERMS, it should be a good match. Hows this sound?

Here's a great spreadsheet to calculate heating times. Check out the 'Electric Heat Calculator' at the bottom of the page
http://suburb.semo.net/jet1024/BeerHome.htm

With a 1500W element, you're looking at anywhere from 2-3 deg/min, depending on volume, which is pretty respectable. Be careful, I think you're 15 min is correct to heat the 1.5g exchanger, but that's assuming the process water is already up to temp. It will take much longer to heat the ~4g of strike water to 160 from 70, about 51min (assuming 95% eff) for (4+1.5)=5.5gal.

If you have poor conduction between the HE water and the process water, the HE will become much hotter, and you'll get some overshoots. But this is something that a really good PID controller can easily adapt to. Yet another reason to minimize the HE water volume.

I am not heating my strike water with electric... I am heating that with my burner, this is ONLY an electric HERMS, not a fully electric brew stand. I want to use electric for the HERMS only. The HERMS will only maintain my mash temp, and mash-out from 160-170F It is really impractical to use it for anything else when you are considering 1500W and a 15A draw. This is why I went from an electric HLT to an electric (small volume) heat exchanger. I THINK

Finally did a practical test today... 120v/1500W element with 9 gallons of water starting at 70F. It took just under 90 minutes to heat the water to 170F. This is about 97% efficiency in my Rubbermaid beverage cooler... so I am pretty happy with it.
Bought the element, PVC coupler and a pigtail that can handle the 15A draw of the element at Lowes for under $15. Now of course I have to add an electric agitator, copper coil, thermowell and a temp controller... BUT, luckily I have the $$ now to do it, I just need the time to get it all converted so that I can brew on it again soon. Thanks for the websites and the helpful information here!

Looks like I AM going to heat my strike water with this electric HLT, will just fire it up while I am making breakfast, by the time I am finished with my coffee I will be ready to dough in and start my recirculation. (I will be keeping a gallon of cool water aside to help cut my HLT temp from 170F to about 157F after I dough in)

When heating my strike water I am getting about 1F per minute increase, when I am using the MLT as the HERMS I will be getting about 2F per minute with the reduced water volume.

I don't know if this will fit with your plans, but I use these to heat water for my saw in the winter. They will boil a 5g bucket of water in less than an hour in 40 degree weather. Price isn't to bad either.

http://www.usahardware.com/inet/shop/item/72220/icn/20-073973/allied_precision/742g.htm

is that 1500w element a 240v 6000w element that you're just running at 120 because you don't have 240 near where you're brewing? Cause 6000w should would heat it up faster.

No it is a 120V element that is pulling about 13A because currently the outlet that I have available to me for brewing is 15A. My plan is to simply attach it to a JC controller and set it for my strike water temp (+10F) and then go get my supplies. When I return home I can mash in and then cool the HLT water a bit so that I can start the recirc at my mash temp (+ about 3-5F) I should have the system up and operational again by the end of July.

Your 13 amp element draw is pulling that 15 amp breaker at 86.6% of its capacity, your already over NEC code of 80% maximum not counting your mixer motor, PID and any panel control lights. If that breaker has been hammered a lot (tripped or used as a swithch) many times in the past it can drop out lower than the 15 amps it's rated. Your idea sounds good it's just that limited amperage. Your sub panel near by like in the garage, be better if you must stay with 120 is go to a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire. Check the wire gauge feeding that outlet at the breaker, might be lucky and already have number 12, if so install a 20 amp but only if it's 12 not 14 gauge then change to a 20 amp plug. JMO's.

Here are the pics of my electric HLT... ran it tonight again, runs awesome! 2F per minute with 5 gallons. Enjoy

I could swear i've seen these pics before

Fo shizzle my Drizzle

Just bought a new digital temp controller for the HERMS exchanger, building my own stopper thermowell, bought a 1/2" x 25' copper coil (pre-chiller) with brass fittings... so I should be good to brew in a week or so! These final parts are being delivered today! Too bad I am in Atlanta until Thursday evening!

Thanks to NB and MB

http://www.northernbrewer.com/pics/fullsize/digital-temp-controller.jpg

http://morebeer.com/view_product/19525//Pre-Chiller_-_25_x_1_2"_with_Brass_Fittings

http://morebeer.com/view_product/16672//Stopper_Thermowell

AND Lowes

http://images.lowes.com/product/026715/026715044887.jpg

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...3&productId=100138364&N=10000003+90276+502602

Ok a few questions about this POL.

I am assuming I can find this heating element for the cooler at homedepot and such. What coupler pieces did you get to work with it? ( I always need help with these type plumbing parts)

Any specific method of putting a hole in the bottom of the cooler? (I have some larger step bits that I guess could work. I am just worried about messing up a cooler.)

Did you need to use any food grade sealant?

The electric motor your using to stir looks like a bathroom ventilation fan right?

I am wanting to know what the plastic piece is, on the extention. It looks like it could be the plastic portion of the wheel fan cut up.

The thermowell piece that you installed, what is that specifically doing? I know it is for telling temperature, but did you install anything in it or on it?

Ok last question, what is in the last link you have listed above? It says removed on homedepot site.

After I get this all up and running, I will send you beer in the future.

check this out:

The Hot Liquor Tun

G-E-R-M-A-N said:

Ok a few questions about this POL.

I am assuming I can find this heating element for the cooler at homedepot and such. What coupler pieces did you get to work with it? ( I always need help with these type plumbing parts)

Any specific method of putting a hole in the bottom of the cooler? (I have some larger step bits that I guess could work. I am just worried about messing up a cooler.)

Did you need to use any food grade sealant?

The electric motor your using to stir looks like a bathroom ventilation fan right?

I am wanting to know what the plastic piece is, on the extention. It looks like it could be the plastic portion of the wheel fan cut up.

The thermowell piece that you installed, what is that specifically doing? I know it is for telling temperature, but did you install anything in it or on it?

Ok last question, what is in the last link you have listed above? It says removed on homedepot site.

After I get this all up and running, I will send you beer in the future.

Click to expand...

Okidoke... well...

The plastic part inside the cooler is a 1.25" threaded PVC coupler that I used to tighten the element into the bottom of the cooler. The threads do not match up perfectly, but well enough to tighten the element in the cooler... I just went around Lowes plumbing dept. until I found a pice that fit the water heater element.

I used hole saws to drill the holes into the bottom of the cooler. I used a 2.5" drill to drill through the OUTER shell and the foam insulation of the cooler. THEN I stopped before I went through the inner shell. I then took a smaller hole saw that was just large enough to facilitate the insertion of the heating element and drilled the smaller hole into the inner shell of the cooler.

I DID NOT use any sealant... only the provided seal with the heating element. I DID however encase my electrical connections in an insulator. I potted the electrical connections on the heating element so that there is NO WAY that they can come into contact with water. Basically it is inserted into a PVC sleeve and then filled with an insulating epoxy, encasing the connections.

DO NOT use a bathroom ventilation fan... they burn up in a matter of hours. I finally purchased an AC Gear Motor from McMaster Carr and a dedicated impeller. I will include a link to my HLT build details at the bottom of this response. You need a motor that is rated for continuous duty, about 100-200RPM and preferrably fan cooled.

The thermowell is a drilled stopper, coupled with a SS dip tube that was modified to be a thermowell. The Johnson Controls A419 temperature probe is then slid down the tube, into the HLT to measure the HLT water temp.

I have no idea what was in the link that you referenced above... I dont have a clue. LOL Here are my details about my HLT!!
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-10-gallon-herms-pics-76773/index4.html

More: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-diamond-plated-herms-hott-pics-88891/

Look at this thread... a lot of info on my system there!

Supposing you were running a RIMS system off 20 Amp 120vac, obviously when the HLT was heating to strike temp, the other element would be off. But once you got the RIMS going, pump and everything, if the PID controlling the HLT element turned it back to keep the HLT at sparge temps, would the breaker go, or can a 20 Amp plug support that sort of thing for a short while?

I highly doubt it would work. One 120V 1500W element is pulling 12 or so amps already.

Yeah I figured. My other option is to unplug my range and use that 240VAC line, but I am pretty sure it is on a 40 or 50 Amp breaker. Would I need to put in another smaller breaker (30 Amp) to run my RIMS?

Why would you use a smaller breaker?

Mostly because I haven't got a clue here and am feeling around in the dark. I need to make friends with an electrician before I kill myself.

So, in short - I could absolutely run a my rims and HLT off the range plug. I think I was definitely misunderstanding the concept of amperage. All cleared up now though.

Cool, yah, big breakers are good, so is the range outlet

The Pol said:

Okidoke... well...

The plastic part inside the cooler is a 1.25" threaded PVC coupler that I used to tighten the element into the bottom of the cooler. The threads do not match up perfectly, but well enough to tighten the element in the cooler... I just went around Lowes plumbing dept. until I found a pice that fit the water heater element.

I used hole saws to drill the holes into the bottom of the cooler. I used a 2.5" drill to drill through the OUTER shell and the foam insulation of the cooler. THEN I stopped before I went through the inner shell. I then took a smaller hole saw that was just large enough to facilitate the insertion of the heating element and drilled the smaller hole into the inner shell of the cooler.

I DID NOT use any sealant... only the provided seal with the heating element. I DID however encase my electrical connections in an insulator. I potted the electrical connections on the heating element so that there is NO WAY that they can come into contact with water. Basically it is inserted into a PVC sleeve and then filled with an insulating epoxy, encasing the connections.

DO NOT use a bathroom ventilation fan... they burn up in a matter of hours. I finally purchased an AC Gear Motor from McMaster Carr and a dedicated impeller. I will include a link to my HLT build details at the bottom of this response. You need a motor that is rated for continuous duty, about 100-200RPM and preferrably fan cooled.

The thermowell is a drilled stopper, coupled with a SS dip tube that was modified to be a thermowell. The Johnson Controls A419 temperature probe is then slid down the tube, into the HLT to measure the HLT water temp.

I have no idea what was in the link that you referenced above... I dont have a clue. LOL Here are my details about my HLT!!
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-10-gallon-herms-pics-76773/index4.html

More: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-diamond-plated-herms-hott-pics-88891/

Look at this thread... a lot of info on my system there!

Click to expand...

Ok that clears up a lot of stuff, thank you.
I am glad I did not buy a bathroom fan.

Ok so what are you doing to the ss dip tube to seal it after going thru the stopper?

why not just buy a stopper thermowell instead trying to make one?

Stopper Thermowell :: Midwest Supplies Homebrewing and Winemaking Supplies

The SS dip tube has a rubber gasket inserted into the end, then it is crimped to seal it. Works like magic.

steedtucker said:

why not just buy a stopper thermowell instead trying to make one?

Stopper Thermowell :: Midwest Supplies Homebrewing and Winemaking Supplies

Click to expand...

$24 vs the $4 I spent to make mine. I was also able to then build it to suit my needs, mainly length. Not to mention that the commercial one has a hole in it that I would have to plug with something, mine does not.
People get raped on those commercial ones.

The Pol said:

$24 vs the $4 I spent to make mine. I was also able to then build it to suit my needs, mainly length. Not to mention that the commercial one has a hole in it that I would have to plug with something, mine does not.
People get raped on those commercial ones.

Click to expand...

+1 for the Pol!!

Indeed, +1 for me

The Pol said:

Click to expand...

Pol,

I may have missed where you said how you did it, and I can't quite tell from the pics. How did you ground the element?

There is not alot of detail on how I did anything on this rig... I ended up grounding the element to the brew stand, and it can be disconnected easily to allow removal of the HLT from the stand. I have also since potted my electrical connections (element) in an insulating epoxy to protect all of the connections from any moisture.

could you use multiple 120vac 1000 watt elements or would that be the same as using one 240vac element and break your circuts

trailblazer said:

could you use multiple 120vac 1000 watt elements or would that be the same as using one 240vac element and break your circuits

Click to expand...

Watts = Volts * Amps

The multiple 120v elements will pull more current than the 240V.

z987k said:

Watts = Volts * Amps

The multiple 120v elements will pull more current than the 240V.

Click to expand...

Yup, what he said. To get more watts, at fewer amps, you have to increase the voltage.