Let's talk direct fired MLTs....

I don't think I can pass up that NB deal on the 10 gallon pot. Just too tempting. So if I set my stand up to allow a direct fired MLT (easy project), am I looking at more headache than it is worth? I've researched it a little bit--some of the problems I've seen are scorching.

I think this has a bunch of advantages to it though, but I don't have a pump so I won't be able to enable recirculation into the picture for a while. I'm mainly interested in being able to have the capability of making step mashes (not decoctions!) and F'ed up strike temp/mash-ins easier. I hate futzing with boiling water and adding it and getting up to temp and all that. I'd love to be able to fire up the burner and get up to temp that way.

Just looking for opinions on if this is worth it--not necessarily how to build the tun--I'll cross that bridge a little later. I have some solid ideas already planned from other threads.

So, those with experience, will this be beneficial for me, or am I looking at a lost cause?

Dude said:

(not decoctions!)

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Yeah right! :cross:

Have you thought of going the steam-injection route? I've been giving some thought to that method for the same reasons you're thinking of a heated tun. Maybe a little more finicky, but no chance of scorching, and not as much thermal inertia to deal with either - although a small burner wouldn't be too difficult to handle.

Go to bed foo!!!!

I wouldn't know where to begin with steam. Any links?

Dude, do a search on this site for steam mash/mashing. Read the threads about the "Mash Monitor" and brewman's steam mash system. It sounds quite do-able...even a manually controlled system should be pretty simple, really. I'm seriously considering another crazy project this summer...complete with automation (I'm actually messing with control software right now...before anything is built).

I'm also considering a direct fired mash tun, not to maintain mash temps, but to bring the strike water up to temperature without having to transfer it to a cooler or other vessel. Once I dough-in, I'll be using HERMS or steam to maintain/raise the temperature as required.

Thanks Yuri...

Okay, after reading that, I'm positive I'm going to do a burner fired MLT, not steam. Maybe down the road, but that is too much hassle for my purposes right now--plus I don't have the fancy skillz.

So....let's talk flame fired MLTs for now...advantages, disadvantages, etc....

Are you brewing indoors or out? Propane or NatGas?

Toot said:

Are you brewing indoors or out? Propane or NatGas?

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Out. Propane, maybe eventually NG.

Isn't all of this kind of a given?

Dude said:

Out. Propane, maybe eventually NG.

Isn't all of this kind of a given?

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Well I didn't know if you had some greater masterplan or something that I missed....

You know, you can always just heat stones to get your mash temps up...


You can also use a diffuser underneath the brewkettle- that might help with the scorching issue. I wonder why more people (especially extract brewers who want a lighter colored beer) don't use them. They're probably less than 20 bucks at a kitchen store. You know what I'm talking about? Those little hollow aluminum plates that go between the kettle and the flame and help to ensure the heat is applied evenly? I would think that would help with the scorching issue.

One more plug for steam mashing:

Ignore all the geek talk about automation. Get a pressure cooker (preferably a large one). Fit a ball valve to the lid with a bulkhead fitting. Plumb the ball valve to a manifold in the bottom of your mash tun. Fill the pressure cooker with water and heat. Every time you want to increase your mash temperature, open the ball valve.

Wikipedia on pressure cookers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_cooker

Otherwise, the diffuser sounds like good insurance against scorching.

Dude said:

I don't think I can pass up that NB deal on the 10 gallon pot. Just too tempting.

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Please post before and after pics. I'd do it too, but I've got my Keggles waiting on my brew rig some day.

I currently use a direct fired MLT and have no problems with it. The trick is to not throw too many BTUs at it. Maintaining mash temps is not a problem. In my case, I have a $10, 15,000 BTU propane burner/stove that I purchased from Harbor Freight Tools. I'll fire up the burner, get to the temp I want and turn it off. When I see the temp is just starting to drop, I'll fire up again for 10 to 20 seconds and I'll be good to go for probably another 15 minutes. Scorching is not an issue at all. I also have a 12" stainless, domed false bottom which was worth the $20 spent.

It's not as easy as a cooler where you add your strike water, close the lid and walk away; but if you are interested in step mashes, it sure as hell beats a cooler in my opinion. When reviewing my numbers, keep in mind that I'm doing five gallon batches and this set up works great for me. If you're thinking of going to ten gallons, then naturally the BTUs on the burner should probably be higher.

In the spirit of wacky ideas….I’ve been reading a UK craft beer book. Some of the UK guys can correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems they used electricity much more than gas. Because adding an electric coil to the MLT would cause scorching, this book actually suggests putting the entire MLT in a big crock-pot filled with water. While I don’t think there are any affordable massive crock-pots in the US, maybe you could use the same concept. Set the MLT in a drip pan filled with water that is heated by your burner.

Yuri_Rage said:

One more plug for steam mashing:

Ignore all the geek talk about automation. Get a pressure cooker (preferably a large one). Fit a ball valve to the lid with a bulkhead fitting. Plumb the ball valve to a manifold in the bottom of your mash tun. Fill the pressure cooker with water and heat. Every time you want to increase your mash temperature, open the ball valve.

Wikipedia on pressure cookers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_cooker

Otherwise, the diffuser sounds like good insurance against scorching.

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This is all discussed in my steam mashing posts. Very simple to set up. Cost effective. No scorching and it works very well.

There are pictures of the caner setup in my gallery. The thing about the caner is you find a used one for $50 or a new one for $100 and there is nothing to build.

The only thing you need is special high temp hose to go from the caner to the MLT. The part number is in the original steam mashing thread, in the parts list for the Corny boiler.

The Brutus 10 directly heats the mash. If I was directly heating the mash, I would have an electric stirrer below the false bottom, moving the wort sitting on the bottom. And I'd be recirculating it as it was heated, to keep the bed uniform and a fresh supply of cooler wort above the burner.

I thought about doing this early this year when I was considering various ways to heat mash. In the end, I think its hard to beat a cooler and a steam generator. For one thing a caner can store a tremendous amount of heat ready to go when you open the valve. That makes for quick mash steps.

I direct "fire" my MLT. I use an induction cooker to mash. I installed a spigot and wrapped my 38 qt pot (18/8 SS, not 18/10) with 5 layers of aluminized bubble wrap. I don't have to worry about flames. In the time it takes me to finalize my recipe, weigh out the grains and mill them, the water is up to strike temp.

In your case, you could heat up the uninsulated pot to your strike temp, turn off the burner and then wrap it with insulation. I didn't buy a lid, but fashioned one out of 1" aluminized styrofoam that I then encased in aluminum foil. I has two holes for thermometers and I rigged up a 4 string harness so I can easily adjust the height to minimize headspace. My set up has VERY little heat loss. You might check for other insulation at McMaster supply. I bought some nice sheets of rock wool to insulate my pig cooker and I recall they had quite an array of heat resistant insulation that you could leave on all the time. I haven't tried a step mash but that is on my short list of things to try - because I can. I'll also put my vote in for a diffuser, and maybe a false bottom, to prevent scorching.

I ordered one of the NB pots (and two more for buddies) to use as a boil pot so I can start to boil the first sparge runoff while I collect the second. Right now I use the same pot for mashing and boiling, so I have to do my sparges, then clean the pot, add my adapter to move my braid from the middle to the side of the pot (for filtering) and then I can start boiling

I have a direct fired MT and I only use the burner to get my 20 gallons of strike water to temp. After mashing in I used a HERMS to controll the temp, I tried the burner but it scortched pretty bad.

I am getting away from gas and switching to electricity to heat the strike water because it is easier to control. I can set the MT to heat to 173 for my strike temp and walk away, it will turn on at 4am and be up to temp by 7am without me being around. My HLT will also turn on automatically and hold the temp within 1 degree without my supervision.

Dude, I agree with you, that you should go for the direct fire MLT. It is easy, straight forward and that is worth a great deal. Is 10 gallons going to be large enough?

Anyway, good luck with all this. I am going to PM you about a pump.

I direct fire my MLT-- I have a 10 gallon system and have a 200,000 BTU nat gas burner (indoor setup). I usually use my burner only to quickly bring my strike water up to temp. I use a combination of low burner and HERMS to raise the temp (which takes a little while longer than infusing, but it works efficiently).

I've never had a problem with scorching, as I never turn the burner up that high when mashing.

One thing I've noticed with my HERMS-- I have to keep my HLT about 10 degrees higher than the MLT in order to maintain temps, and I have to raise it to about 10 degrees higher than my target temp to do a step up.

Okay, so I'm a month late....but I use a direct fired MLT too with a big'ol NG burner and recirculation capabilities. Direct fired is nice for all of the reasons I'm sure you know, but I think the pump is what makes having direct fire worth it.

True, I think a pump makes everything easier, but you can just stir constantantly while you're heating. That's been working fine for me but eventually I will get a pump.

Im thinking a steam injection or RIMS/HERMS system will give you the best results. Personally I don't like the idea of directly heating the bottom of the MLT because of hot spots or even worse...scorching. I think if you can relatively heat the whole thing at the same rate it would produce the best results.

So either a coil of tubing for steam injection, or a convection heat transfer from a HERMS system would be the way to go

I got lucky with my pump as it only cost me 5 gallons of beer so I've been spoiled since the begining.
Stirring probably does a great job as well (just time consuming) and I hadn't considered that because I recirculate my mash. (another benefit of the pump )

i clicked on "new posts" and read this thread as "Let's talk direct fired MILFs...."

i think i have a problem.

I'll put in another plug for using steam infusion to direct heat your mash. It was dead easy to set up, and cost about $30. It works very well, no worries about scorching, and you can do it in a cooler in your kitchen. For someone like me that uses a cheap but very effective cooler MLT, steam infusion meant I didn't have to buy another big stainless pot, another burner, a pump, etc., etc. Plus, everything cleans up quick and stores in a very small space. For 5 gallon batches, it rocks. For bigger batches, you just need a bigger steam source -- see brewman !'s or Yuri's monster steam systems for 10 gal or larger systems.

I missed this thread all together. I added a burner on the middle tier during the build but still am using a cooler. Haven't determined what I really want yet for MLT. What'd you opt for Dude?

jjasghar said:

i clicked on "new posts" and read this thread as "Let's talk direct fired MILFs...."

i think i have a problem.

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I really like the steam set-up too. More energy efficient and pretty easy to use. I'm thinking about using the pressure cooker I have laying around to aid my system....maybe in heating the boil faster or something like that....my next system will utilize steam.

Hey Dude,

As you know, I direct-heat my mash. Always have, ever since I got into PM'ing. And not once, ever, has scorching been an issue. I mash right in my kettles, and pour the mash into the false-bottomed MLT when I'm done. My first rest is always a kind of "infusion", just because I find it easier to deal with, and I can turn the burners up all the way and heat the strike water up faster without worrying about scorching or having to stir.

I direct heat the strike water in another container. Then I pour it into the grain, which is waiting in its kettle. Then I put that kettle on the burner and apply heat as required.

I like this method, because I can do stepped mashes, and still have the correct water:grain ratio from the start. I've tried infusion mashing before, and it's just a pain to start out with a really stiff mash. Plus, you don't have to worry about calculating the infusion water temps.

I love direct-fired mashing. Since the kettle isn't insulated, it does take more attention, because heat loss is greater than if it was a cooler. But if you keep the lid on, your loss won't be that bad.

It seems like the steam advocates are really coming out lately, but I'm not convinced about the whole steam thing. I really can't see how setting up another piece of equipment for steam makes the process easier/better. If you've already got a burner under the MLT, direct fire is easy. And if you're stirring or recirculating with a pump (just like you'll have to with steam) then there's really no risk of hot spots or scorching if the heat isn't too high. BrewMagic(http://www.kegs.com/brewmagic1.html) uses it and so does the mighty Brutus 10 (http://www.alenuts.com/brutus.htm) and a bunch of other systems. Maybe steam is better, and some would argue that HERMS is too. I don't really know, but I suspect they all make good beer if used right, and I also suspect that homebrew steam systems won't be extremely popular, despite the recent fad on this board. No disrespect to those of you trying to incorporate it into your system. Just my $0.02.

Lil' Sparky said:

It seems like the steam advocates are really coming out lately, but I'm not convinced about the whole steam thing. I really can't see how setting up another piece of equipment for steam makes the process easier/better. If you've already got a burner under the MLT, direct fire is easy. And if you're stirring or recirculating with a pump (just like you'll have to with steam) then there's really no risk of hot spots or scorching if the heat isn't too high. BrewMagic(http://www.kegs.com/brewmagic1.html) uses it and so does the mighty Brutus 10 (http://www.alenuts.com/brutus.htm) and a bunch of other systems. Maybe steam is better, and some would argue that HERMS is too. I don't really know, but I suspect they all make good beer if used right, and I also suspect that homebrew steam systems won't be extremely popular, despite the recent fad on this board. No disrespect to those of you trying to incorporate it into your system. Just my $0.02.

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All good points. But I want to emphasisze that I certainly am not advocating that one method makes better beer than the other.

However, following-up on your logic above, I do want to point out that if you are using a cooler-based MLT already, yes, you have to set up another piece of equipment to steam mash. BUT, if you want to direct fire your mash, then you have to set up MULTIPLE pieces of new equipment (kettle/keggle, another burner perhaps, a recirc pump perhaps, etc., etc.). Those items are also going to be far more costly than my cheap $30 steam system. That's the only point I was really trying to make.

I also wanted to emphasize that steam can be really easy, but not necessarily *easier* than other techniques. I have seen some recent posts by brewman and Yuri with some incredible gear -- but that isn't necessary -- so I was just plugging the simple side of steam mashing, too.

Lil' Sparky said:

I really can't see how setting up another piece of equipment for steam makes the process easier/better. If you've already got a burner under the MLT, direct fire is easy. And if you're stirring or recirculating with a pump (just like you'll have to with steam) then there's really no risk of hot spots or scorching if the heat isn't too high...

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I agree, but the steam could come in handy when I'm waiting for the 13 gallons of wort to come to a boil....however in thinking about this, I wonder if this would lead to HSA?

Has anyone tried to use steam (not jacketed pots) to raise water/wort to a boil? I'm guessing here, the amount of help you would get vs your burner would be minimal. I start heating my kettle during the sparge. By the time I'm done, it takes < 5 mins for the whole thing to be a rolling boil, and I never turn my burner all the way up.

Not sure about the HSA, but if there's anything to it, steaming bubbles through the wort might do it, but you've only got a finite amount of air to begin with in your steam generator, so maybe it wouldn't be a big deal.

Something to be tested I guess.....but thats a tough experiment....
Dang, <5 minutes thats awesome.... It takes me close to an hour to get from sparge temp to boil. How big are your batches?
Maybe I should insulate my kettle.....

I was quoting 5 gal, but I do 5 and 10 gal. There's not really much difference between them, though. The first sparge is boiling before I start the second batch. I guess this is one of the reasons why I can brew in 3.5 hrs.

Lil' Sparky said:

Has anyone tried to use steam (not jacketed pots) to raise water/wort to a boil? I'm guessing here, the amount of help you would get vs your burner would be minimal. I start heating my kettle during the sparge. By the time I'm done, it takes < 5 mins for the whole thing to be a rolling boil, and I never turn my burner all the way up.

Not sure about the HSA, but if there's anything to it, steaming bubbles through the wort might do it, but you've only got a finite amount of air to begin with in your steam generator, so maybe it wouldn't be a big deal.

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I know I can't do a boil with my little steam system, at least not in a reasonable length of time. But I can go from a protein rest (122F) to starch conversion rest (152) in about 10 - 12 minutes. So all it is good for is multistep mashing, not boiling.

And HSA isn't an issue with steam infusion, especially if you boil your 02 out of your water before you seal up the pressure cooker and deliver the steam. It is gaseous H20 that you are injecting, not air.

EDIT: OK, I just spotted Yuri's post here. I think he might boil water with that steam setup!