Ready to get this party started... with tons of help of course

After brewing for a bit over a year I have had some great brews and some so-so brews. I have a temp controlled fridge in the garage for fermentation so in order to rule out variances in my brewing process as cause I am looking to build my rig....finally

I am looking to do 3 keggles (although at this point I am scouring craigslist for my 3rd sanke) 2 pumps (just arrived from ahs) 5500 watt elements in the bk and hlt and utilize herms for the mash. I have been going back and forth in my head between Kals setup using pids and the bcs but i think the bcs has won out. I would like to be able to manual overide using three way switches and a control panel however. Edison is coming out this week to check on the upgrade to a 200 amp panel (only have 100 atm).


Here is my dilemma... while welding the stand is a piece of cake, and a buddy at work will do all the tig work for me in the keggles, the more I read about wiring all this up and exactly what i need to buy the more i am confused..I took 6 months of electronic principles while in the air force about ten years ago but that is as far as my experience goes...I finally have some spare cash to buy most of what i need to take care of this project so if anybody can help i would really appreciate it.

Thanks all, Kosmo

Make sure you read the various ebrewery build threads. Takes things one at a time as there are many different aspects to building one of these things. Make a plan and keep track of the parts you need, the ones you have, and the ones you need or are on order. I've managed to keep my sanity during my build with this type of list.

Then enlist the help of an electrician. Even then, things can get wired wrong.

Good luck and keep us informed of how it's going.

Kosmo,

Tell us a little more about your plan.
I know there will be a BOIL kettle & a HLT kettle. Your third kettle will be the MASH tun.
How are you intending on maintaining the MASH temp - HERMS coil or RIMS?
Also, what is your power source - 50A-240V or 30A-240V?

I do have a couple wiring diagrams that might help you.

P-J

thanks guys, PJ, Looking at all of your wiring diagrams is what is helping me to grasp the way everything all of this works. I am planning on utilizing herms to maintain temps, trying to find the right coil size was part of my research tonight. I will be using keggles so im thinking 50'of 1/2" stainless but not sure what coil diameter, stainless brewing has them in 10,12, and 14 inch.

Power source... hmm, this was another large portion of my evenings readings. I currently only have a 100 amp panel so I was trying to figure out what i could go with. I have a fridge at 8.5 amps, ferm fridge running at 7 amps, and didnt get a chance to check amperage on the keezer but im thinking i can use two 4500 watt elements with the 50 amp gfi spa panel and be okay as long as im not running the ac or anything with a huge draw?
SoCal Edison is coming out tomarrow for a site survey regarding 200 amp upgrade to the panel and my uncle said he would do the work for the cost of the material and permit so that is another option.

Trying to figure out what electrical components i need to buy is going to be the most difficult part for me right now. Do any of your wiring diagrams utilize bcs 460 PJ? I havent come across one yet that does I dont think.

Here is one that would probably fit your needs:

As always - click on the image to see a full scale diagram printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")

Wow pj... thanks for such bxa quick drawing.. i do have a couple questions though... i will be doing mostly 5-10 gallon batches... is it better/possible to use 4500 watt element in the ketlles for the brief periods that both might be running at the same time or is it better/safer to keep it this way. What is the thir outlet control for if im using 2 pumps? And can i use indicator lamps to show status on here as well? Thanks for the help again.... there be alot less ebrewers in the world without your help pj

kosmokramer said:

Wow pj... thanks for such bxa quick drawing.. i do have a couple questions though... i will be doing mostly 5-10 gallon batches... is it better/possible to use 4500 watt element in the ketlles for the brief periods that both might be running at the same time or is it better/safer to keep it this way. What is the thir outlet control for if im using 2 pumps? And can i use indicator lamps to show status on here as well? Thanks for the help again.... there be alot less ebrewers in the world without your help pj

Click to expand...

That drawing is for a 30A-240V feed. You certainly could use 4500W elements, but, for you to run them both at the same time your power feed needs to be a 50A-240V feed.

Regarding the 3rd outlet. You certainly do not need to have it in your setup. I placed it when I drew the diagram because the control for it is available with the BCS-460.

You need to decide on your available power feed 30A or 50A. I'll go from there.

P-J

I am going to say 50 amp feed. If i find that i am dimming or tripping breakers with both going at once i will only use one of the 4500's at a time. There shouldnt be any adverse affects from that coreect except the extra cost for a 50 amp feed? Ori should have actually asked this first... will i ver need to run both at the same time... i dont generally do back to back batches

kosmokramer said:

I am going to say 50 amp feed. If i find that i am dimming or tripping breakers with both going at once i will only use one of the 4500's at a time. There shouldnt be any adverse affects from that coreect except the extra cost for a 50 amp feed? Ori should have actually asked this first... will i ver need to run both at the same time... i dont generally do back to back batches

Click to expand...

With a 50A feed you should not have problems running both at the same time (with the pumps as well).

With a 50A feed, there is also additional cost for setting up your controller. You would need to have circuit breakers within your controller. That would be about $50 more for the breakers.

The only time you would need to run both at the same time is if you were running back to back batches, IMHO.

Kosmokramer- If you are willing to drive out to San Diego one weekend or in the evening, I have an keg I cut open and was using as an HLT/HEX, but I was trying to braze fittings on to it and I over heated it and it cracked. I'm sure It would be a simple fix for an experienced TIG welder. You can have it for free. I can give you a tour of my all electric set up, that I built using PJ's help, too.

If you are interested PM me and I'll send you some pictures of it.

P-J said:

With a 50A feed you should not have problems running both at the same time (with the pumps as well).

With a 50A feed, there is also additional cost for setting up your controller. You would need to have circuit breakers within your controller. That would be about $50 more for the breakers.

The only time you would need to run both at the same time is if you were running back to back batches, IMHO.

Click to expand...

Okay, makes sense... ill go the way the drawing shows on a 30 amp feed. Where would i had in some status lamps? This. Is just to add to the coolness of the panel even the network interface should tell me whats happenin on the monitor. Also as far as ordering part do i just look up the ratings you provided? I would like to get items on order as soon as i can. It feels like an achievement even getting this far...lol

Bsquared said:

Kosmokramer- If you are willing to drive out to San Diego one weekend or in the evening, I have an keg I cut open and was using as an HLT/HEX, but I was trying to braze fittings on to it and I over heated it and it cracked. I'm sure It would be a simple fix for an experienced TIG welder. You can have it for free. I can give you a tour of my all electric set up, that I built using PJ's help, too.

If you are interested PM me and I'll send you some pictures of it.

Click to expand...

The swimbo and i were planning to take a drive out there this weekend or next weekend... ill send u a pm after i get out of work

also,,, what size enclosure do you guys think id need?

PJ, I was reading in some other threads that a 40a ssr on the element side runs cooler and more efficient than the 25 amp with 5500 watt elements. Is that nullified in this diagram due to the use of the contactors?

kosmokramer said:

PJ, I was reading in some other threads that a 40a ssr on the element side runs cooler and more efficient than the 25 amp with 5500 watt elements. Is that nullified in this diagram due to the use of the contactors?

Click to expand...

Thanks for catching that. I messed up when I placed the SSR images. The element SSR's should have been 40A units. Apparently I placed the wrong ones and never realized it. With a 5500W element, the amp draw would be 23A. That's really pushing it for a 25A SSR.

I changed the diagram now to show properly.

Thanks again.

P-J

No prob and thanks again for your help. Another question though... would the ssr from amazon that have a 3-32 dc input and 24~380 ac control work or does it need to be 90~480?

kosmokramer said:

No prob and thanks again for your help. Another question though... would the ssr from amazon that have a 3-32 dc input and 24~380 ac control work or does it need to be 90~480?

Click to expand...

That is A-Ok.

For the Auber Instruments PID it's Ok as long as the control voltage is in a DC range. The output is also well within the range of your mission.

P-J

PJ, I saw a drawing you did with non illuminated 3 position selector switch which had one light for manual and one for bcs which would light depending on position of the switch and a buzzer but i cant find it anymore. Can you incorporate that into mine?

also, do you think this enclosure will be large enough for what you drawn for me?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360018263933&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

sean

kosmokramer said:

PJ, I saw a drawing you did with non illuminated 3 position selector switch which had one light for manual and one for bcs which would light depending on position of the switch and a buzzer but i cant find it anymore. Can you incorporate that into mine?

also, do you think this enclosure will be large enough for what you drawn for me?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360018263933&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

sean

Click to expand...

Regarding the enclosure. I really don't know if all of the components including the BCS would fit in it. The price is right and worth a chance.

Regarding the drawing, I believe this is the one that you saw:

As always - click on the image to see a full scale diagram printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



Hope this helps.

P-J

Yup. That is the one. Is there any way you can incorprate those lights switches and buzzer into mine? Im still very new and learning so it will help out a bit. Also what voltage lights and switches do i need to buy? Ill have a friend help me get it all together but i want to make surei order all the right parts. Thanks pj. If theres anything i can do to repay for your time please let me know

Got a couple packages in today

Ok. I redrew the diagram for use with a 30A 240V feed.

I'm not aware of the "buzzer" that you speak of - Please explain.

The switches are from Auber Instruments: Selector Switch, 3-Position Maintained 2 NO
You will need to order additional N/O modules for all of them: NO/NC Switch Block (except switch #7)

And these are the Indicator lights: LED Indicator, 22 mm, 120/240V
You need to choose the color and the voltage when you order. The diagram shows the lights wired for 120V.

As always - click on the image to see a full scale diagram printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



Hope this helps.

P-J

Hey pj, quick question as I am trying to figure this deal out too, but why the need of breakers in the control panel if your using 50 amp service? Does that change if you use a isolated spa panel too, or if you use an external panel do you still need breakers in your control panel. Thanks !

amurphyz said:

Hey pj, quick question as I am trying to figure this deal out too, but why the need of breakers in the control panel if your using 50 amp service? Does that change if you use a isolated spa panel too, or if you use an external panel do you still need breakers in your control panel. Thanks !

Click to expand...

First: You must provide GFCI protection for your brewery controller and you. This is a "bet your life" issue. It can be done by installing a GFCI breaker in your mains panel (usually a fairly expensive component) or you can buy a Spa Panel from HomeDepot for about $50.00.

To run a 50A-240V feed to your brewery, you will need a much heavier wire feed and 50A rated outlets. (Figure the cost) Additionally, within your controller, you must provide circuit protection for those components that run on less than the 50A. Fuses are A-Ok for 120V items - however - I would not use them on any 240V circuits. The reason being - If a fuse blows there will still be significant voltage and current available on the device. This is due to the fact that the 2nd fuse on the circuit has not blown and voltage/power is still being delivered. The risk is way too high to fool with. A circuit breaker will cut both legs of the 240V line. The 120V 15A breakers are added for convenience to eliminate the need for several additional circuit fuses.

All of this is within the control panel so that you only need to run a single power feed to it.

I sure hope this explains it and helps you. It is, after all, all about your safety.

Please feel free to ask more questions.

P-J

P-J said:

Please feel free to ask more questions.

P-J

Click to expand...

By the time im done you will wish you had never said that one...lol; Where do you recomend buying the terminal bars and inline fuses? Does radio shack carry them. Also what gauge wires do i need to be running internally?

kosmokramer said:

By the time im done you will wish you had never said that one...lol; Where do you recomend buying the terminal bars and inline fuses? Does radio shack carry them. Also what gauge wires do i need to be running internally?

Click to expand...

Terminal bars: mcmaster.com
In line fuses: Radio Shack (plus fuse holders)
Wire size: Ampacity Charts

NO Problem - ever.!

P-J
Glad to help.

Ok pj, point well taken on the safety first, and it does make sense for the on line protection on both legs. See the reason I ask, I have a line on a deal for a 50 amp spa panel for 10 bucks, I have no need for 50 amp, and my ebuild is almost complete as far as parts gathering goes, so as far deep as I am in this, going back to the drawing bored will just cost me more money in the long run, think I'll just go with the 30 amp gfci breakers and be done with it, it's just hard to pass up a deal like that!! Your awesome man, sometime in the future well have to get together so you can show what I messed up on, ha ha, I live up in troutman, obviously not far from you, thanks again man!

amurphyz said:

Ok pj, point well taken on the safety first, and it does make sense for the on line protection on both legs. See the reason I ask, I have a line on a deal for a 50 amp spa panel for 10 bucks, I have no need for 50 amp, and my ebuild is almost complete as far as parts gathering goes, so as far deep as I am in this, going back to the drawing bored will just cost me more money in the long run, think I'll just go with the 30 amp gfci breakers and be done with it, it's just hard to pass up a deal like that!! Your awesome man, sometime in the future well have to get together so you can show what I messed up on, ha ha, I live up in troutman, obviously not far from you, thanks again man!

Click to expand...

Wait... Wait...

If you have a 30A-240V 3 wire feed: Wire your Spa Panel this way:



Or if you have a 30A-240V 4 wire feed: Wire it this way:



Hope this helps BUT we really need to talk before you toss money into the bushes.

Troutman?? You need to PM me your number.!!! AND a best time to call you.

P-J

Ahh, so my in logical thinking was right!! I can run the 50 amp from a 30 amp feed, especially for the $ I'll be saving, awesome, yeah, up here in trout ville, I work in kannapolis, I'll pm you my #, by the way, I'm pretty much following Kals build sheet, I just took the amp and volt meters out and put in float switches in the hlt and bk, I know with ld elements I should be good, but still don't like the " dry fire" on them, and figured a couple of bucks here and there could save a 25$ element and possibly a brew day. Thanks again man, your awesome!

should all of these terminal bars be rated at 30 amps?

This is the type of buzzer i was talking about. I was wondering if the bcs had an output to trigger this in case im in the other room and lose track of time.

Also, why do you need additional no blcoks if the selector switches already have two no positions? Im not sure i understand that.

kosmokramer said:

should all of these terminal bars be rated at 30 amps?

Click to expand...

You certainly could do it that way.

kosmokramer said:

This is the type of buzzer i was talking about. I was wondering if the bcs had an output to trigger this in case im in the other room and lose track of time.

Also, why do you need additional no blcoks if the selector switches already have two no positions? Im not sure i understand that.

Click to expand...

Ok...

I still don't have a clue regarding the buzzer.
Again - What buzzer???

Regarding the switches, please take a look at this post that I made in another thread.
post4089258

Sorry.. i forgot to paster the link

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_33&products_id=215

kosmokramer said:

Sorry.. i forgot to paster the link

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_33&products_id=215

Click to expand...

Ok.
I'm not aware of a way to trigger the buzzer using the BCS system. With a PID the alarm function is built into it.

P-J said:

Ok.
I'm not aware of a way to trigger the buzzer using the BCS system. With a PID the alarm function is built into it.

Click to expand...

Ok thanks.. and thanks for the explanation on the switches. Makes a bit more sense now, but you say that for this application you want all positions n/o. Is there a situation where you would want them 2 n/o and 1 n/c as they are sold? Just curious

kosmokramer said:

Ok thanks.. and thanks for the explanation on the switches. Makes a bit more sense now, but you say that for this application you want all positions n/o. Is there a situation where you would want them 2 n/o and 1 n/c as they are sold? Just curious

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand your question. Where did you source the switches from? Auber Instruments? If so, they can be ordered to your specific configuration needs.

With a 3 position switch (center off) the N/C modules behave in a totally different manner than one would normally expect.

P-J said:

The switches are from Auber Instruments: Selector Switch, 3-Position Maintained 2 NO
You will need to order additional N/O modules for all of them: NO/NC Switch Block (except switch #7)

P-J

Click to expand...

I was asking in reference to this. I was just curious why they wouldnt be sold with the additonal no mudule assembled instead of as an addon-

kosmokramer said:

I was asking in reference to this. I was just curious why they wouldnt be sold with the additonal no mudule assembled instead of as an addon-

Click to expand...

Don't know. I'm not the vendor.

Call them and ask. I think they might accomodate your request for assembled switch configurations.

P-J said:

Ok.
I'm not aware of a way to trigger the buzzer using the BCS system. With a PID the alarm function is built into it.

Click to expand...

The only way to trigger the buzzer with bcs is to install another SSR. I came across this in my own build. I luckily had a small spare SSR I used to wire it in. Since the buzzer is 110v, the BCS won't be able to control it directly. In fact, BCS was designed to use an audible sound through the computer, not a physical buzzer.

Kosmo, if you need more visuals as to how your wiring up P-Js schematic with BCS, I may be able to help. When I built mine I had tried to go off my own schematic, but wound up with a hybrid of mine and P-Js after the way I had planned didn't perform as I would have liked it to.

hatrickwah said:

The only way to trigger the buzzer with bcs is to install another SSR. I came across this in my own build. I luckily had a small spare SSR I used to wire it in. Since the buzzer is 110v, the BCS won't be able to control it directly. In fact, BCS was designed to use an audible sound through the computer, not a physical buzzer.

Kosmo, if you need more visuals as to how your wiring up P-Js schematic with BCS, I may be able to help. When I built mine I had tried to go off my own schematic, but wound up with a hybrid of mine and P-Js after the way I had planned didn't perform as I would have liked it to.

Click to expand...

Any help or visuals would be great! Im sinking over here...lol. quick question, i didnt see it on the bcs wiki, what hardware requirement are there for the bcs? I pick this touchscreen up for 40 bucks. 233 mhz on windows nt