How to deal with empty headspace?

If you're racking a 5 gallon batch from a typical 7.9 gallon primary bucket into a typical 6 or 6.5 gallon secondary/bottling bucket, how do you manage the headspace? Is oxidizing a concern or will the process of racking wake the yeast up enough to create a satisfactory blanket of CO2?

And.... go! :rockin:

It's a legitimate concern. I'd first consider skipping secondary altogether and just leave it in primary for a bit longer. I guess if you are doing wood or fruit beer, you'd want to secondary, but otherwise, skip it. Problem solved!

I've used a 6 gallon better bottle as a secondary before and it's fine. If it bothers you put the racking cane down in the bottom or take the cap off to let some yeast in.

Grantman1 said:

It's a legitimate concern. I'd first consider skipping secondary altogether and just leave it in primary for a bit longer. I guess if you are doing wood or fruit beer, you'd want to secondary, but otherwise, skip it. Problem solved!

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When I've done it with fruit, I wasn't concerned because the fruit kicked the fermentation back up and created a new blanket. In most cases I would skip secondary, but for clarity purposes some times it's almost necessary.

stmou984 said:

I've used a 6 gallon better bottle as a secondary before and it's fine. If it bothers you put the racking cane down in the bottom or take the cap off to let some yeast in.

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In my house, the wild yeast is cat dander... not a flavor I want in my beer :cross:

The extra headspace is a concern. As Grantman1 said, avoid the secondary if possible.

You can also avoid the problem by splurging on a 5 gal carboy.

If you use a secondary, it will breathe thru the airlock as the room temperature changes. Add some metabisulfite to the water in the airlock (not to the beer), which will ensure there is enough sulfite in the headspace to scavenge any oxygen that makes it in there.

Shred said:

In my house, the wild yeast is cat dander... not a flavor I want in my beer :cross:

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That would make a great tag line.

Shred,
Head space worries me every time so far in 13 batches. Only two came to the neck of the carboy in secondary. Most end up with 4 gallons (and less) in the 5 gallon carboy.

I always get some CO2 release in the secondary after transfer. Sometimes small tiny bubbles that will bubble the airlock every few minutes for a day or so. Sometimes just bubbles with slow airlock activity that only lasts for an hour or so. I am pretty sure there has been enough released each time to protect the surface.

I always fill the airlock with Starsan and fit a clean sandwich bag over the top.

Since I have only been brewing for six months, there are a only a few batches that are 3 months in the bottles. They are all tasting as good or better than the first month. So no great harm done here in this length of time.

It might be one of those things that effects things in the six month range and beyond, not sure. Hopefully someone can ring in that experienced the ill effects of oxidation due to low head space.

Infection and oxidation are two different things as far as I understand things.

Secondary is a waste unless adding something or ageing.

The beer doesn't know how many times it's been racked, it will clear the same in primary as in secondary. You only need to rack to get it off the yeast so unless you need the yeast cake for pitching a new batch, I would leave it in primary.

A bit off the OP topic....well way the heck off the OP topic. The old secondary debate.

A bit more overall perspective is that secondary is an option and a preference. Some like warm beer, some like cold. Some like clear beer, some like cloudy, and some don't see a difference. Some can taste the difference between them, some can't. Some won't even consider drinking a cloudy beer or one with particles and chunks.

In a few cases, secondary has made no difference on the clarity. Some recipes have had great clearing in primary. Most have been messy. Some leave cakes on top, never to drop; interfering with the transfer to bottling bucket. Some end up with buoyant particles/chunks distributed throughout. Waiting even beyond 3 weeks in primary has not helped clear these problem recipes.

Adding finings here can help to varying degrees. Moving to a location for cold crash will help, too. With good siphon control and/or filtering, transferring directly to bottling bucket can be done without particles and chunks in the bottles. Secondary is another technique to help clear and make it easier to have clear beer to the bottling bucket when the recipe produces a messy primary, when clearing methods are not practical, and when siphon technique is less than expert.

Then there are recipes that drop and clear perfectly, leading one to think that they will all be like it. And some brewers are not limited to the # of fermenting vessels or choose to delay the next brew until a primary is empty.

So what is a waste to some, is necessary to others.

You can purge the headspace with CO2 from a tank or, if you plan ahead and have another batch going, you can purge it like this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/thanks-hbt-another-awesome-idea-251143/

Oh, and I'm still drinking that RIS. A year and a half later, an no oxidation flavors at all.

I have taken on the less scientific and less accurate method which I call "meh". What I do is consider what the most reasonable time to keep a brew in primary or whatever the recipe calls for. Then:

So I open it up and check the FG several times to see when it stabilizes? meh

Should I transfer it to a secondary? meh

Should I bottle it right away? meh

I just leave it another week or so beyond that primary time. I don't open it and release the residual CO2 in the headspace or subject the beer to O2 or contaminates through extra racking. I open it once, transfer to bottling bucket and bottle.

My belief is the more you F with it, the more chances you create to screw it up. I remember some quote that was like "Doctor said, if I just kept my finger out of my nose, it wouldn't bleed so much"

When I read this thread title I thought when did he meet my wife?


HHHHMMMM

.

JonM said:

You can purge the headspace with CO2 from a tank or, if you plan ahead and have another batch going, you can purge it like this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/thanks-hbt-another-awesome-idea-251143/

Oh, and I'm still drinking that RIS. A year and a half later, an no oxidation flavors at all.

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Now that's thinking things through ! Well done. Made me think that we can do that while making a yeast starter, too.

JonM said:

You can purge the headspace with CO2 from a tank or, if you plan ahead and have another batch going, you can purge it like this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/thanks-hbt-another-awesome-idea-251143/

Oh, and I'm still drinking that RIS. A year and a half later, an no oxidation flavors at all.

Click to expand...

Love this idea. I will eventually add a 5 gallon and 6 gallon carboy to my collection. Right now I've got a bunch of buckets and a 6.5 glass (with Chardonnay currently in it).

I'm not one to be picky about clarity in most of my beers. In fact, I have an IPA in primary that I just dry hopped and intend to leave there until bottling time. So, the thread wasn't meant to debate the effectiveness of secondary for clearing, but how to manage head space when secondary is required for other reasons...

As an example, I made an Irish Mocha Stout which required racking to secondary with cocoa nibs and cold brewed espresso - neither is fermentable. I believe I got it over to secondary while the yeast was still snacking at least a little so I probably had enough CO2 production to create a new blanket.

However - if I'd not had time to get it over to secondary before fermentation had completed it could have been another story.

I've heard of people using marbles, but where does one buy the necessary 10,000,000 marbles to fill a gallon of space?

I honestly wouldn't worry about oxidation in secondary unless you secondary in a wave machine or in an aquarium with an oxygenator. As long as the surface of the liquid is not sufficiently disturbed for any length of time as in the time to transfer not being long enough. The concern over oxygenation is mostly overblown. This is on top of the fact that most oxygenation off-flavors take at least 6 months to develop if not longer.