Help explaining funky taste in my beers???

So I brewed a Northern Brewer Carribou Slobber and Altbier with a week of each other back in November (11/21 and 11/27, respectively). In the altbier I used a store bought drinking water and the other I used my tap water. Both were full boil in my aluminum pot. Kegged both on 12/18 and both still have some sort of metallic/acidic/carbonic/bitter taste to them. Obviously by those descriptions I don't have a mature palette but there is some sort of bite to the beers that makes both taste bad. I can't figure out what it could be though. Everything was cleaned and sanitized and it doesn't taste infected. I used liquid yeast on both but didn't do a starter so maybe that's it? I fermented both around 60 degrees. Any ideas for what my problem might be? Below are the recipes. I'm stumped and quite upset that these aren't good at all. Maybe it needs more time but I feel like two months it should at least taste decent.

Brown Ale:

1.00 lb Amber Dry Extract
6.00 lb Amber Liquid Extract
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt
0.13 lb Black (Patent) Malt
0.75 oz Goldings, B.C. [4.50 %] (60 min)
0.75 oz Liberty [3.90 %] (45 min)
1.00 oz Williamette [4.70 %] (15 min)
1 Pkgs Northwest Ale (Wyeast Labs #1332) Yeast-Ale
*added DME after a boil was reached and added LME at flameout.

Altbier:
1.00 lb Amber Dry Extract
6.00 lb Munich Liquid Extract
1.00 lb Caramunich II
0.50 oz Pearle [7.80 %] (60 min)
0.50 oz Pearle [7.80 %] (45 min)
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.30 %] (15 min)
1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale
*added DME after a boil was reached and added LME with 15 minutes left. (I think)

did you create a passive oxide layer on the kettle before using it?

NordeastBrewer77 said:

did you create a passive oxide layer on the kettle before using it?

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I did before my first use. But I've used the pot 7 or so times so maybe its worn off. It has scratches in the layer I think from using a stainless steel spoon but for the most part it looks like it has a oxide layer in it.

cincybrewer said:

Brown Ale:

100 lb Amber Dry Extract

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It should be reallllly sweet with all that DME! Haha

cincybrewer said:

I did before my first use. But I've used the pot 7 or so times so maybe its worn off. It has scratches in the layer I think from using a stainless steel spoon but for the most part it looks like it has a oxide layer in it.

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hmm. and it's a metallic flavor? could it be a minerally flavor from either the water or the yeast? i've seen some yeasts give a bit of mineral/metal-like flavors at the low temps, but they were english strains.

dmbRedGetta said:

It should be reallllly sweet with all that DME! Haha

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or REALLY strong!

dmbRedGetta said:

It should be reallllly sweet with all that DME! Haha

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Proof that it at least has alcohol in it since I drank half a pint before posting. :cross:

NordeastBrewer77 said:

hmm. and it's a metallic flavor? could it be a minerally flavor from either the water or the yeast? i've seen some yeasts give a bit of mineral/metal-like flavors at the low temps, but they were english strains.

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I think that's my biggest issue with brewing, I really suck at identifying flavors. I'm not 100% sure if it's metallic or just bitter, or what. But it just has this "bite" that takes away from the flavor of the beer.

Can you compare it to some domestic/mass produced beers?

Does it taste like a Killians Red or some such?

sometimes LME can leave a bit of a strange, bitter flavor. what many call the twang (ducking to avoid the non believers).
when do you add your LME? in the boil or after? what brand(s) of LME do you use?

NordeastBrewer77 said:

hmm. and it's a metallic flavor? could it be a minerally flavor from either the water or the yeast? i've seen some yeasts give a bit of mineral/metal-like flavors at the low temps, but they were english strains.

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I have a stout which used white labs english ale yeast that has a metallic taste. I can't seem to figure out why.. I'm thinking it had something to do with the yeast strain. I was thinking the yeast might have been stressed when I received it, as well. I had it shipped without cold packs and it was very warm when it arrived and extremely carbonated in the vial when I opened it. Now I always opt for cold shipping...

Stauffbier said:

I have a stout which used white labs english ale yeast that has a metallic taste. I can't seem to figure out why.. I'm thinking it had something to do with the yeast strain. I was thinking the yeast might have been stressed when I received it, as well. I had it shipped without cold packs and it was very warm and extremely carbonated in the vial when I opened it. Now I always opt for cold shipping...

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the whitbread strains are the ones i've seen actually kick a minerally flavor, namely the whitbread dry (1098/007). it seems to show up more in lighter beers and those fermented fairly cool. i think the esters from warmer temps cover the flavor.

Dynachrome said:

Can you compare it to some domestic/mass produced beers?

Does it taste like a Killians Red or some such?

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Not really. The bite really takes away from any "flavor" such as maltiness. I can't really taste hops either. I thought it might have been caused by a high bitterness yet watered down beer b/c I ended up with too much wort but my OG was 1.049 and finished around 1.013. So that doesn't sound like it'd be too watered down. And the Altbier actually finished with less than 5 gallons so that definitely shouldn't be watered down.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

sometimes LME can leave a bit of a strange, bitter flavor. what many call the twang (ducking to avoid the non believers).
when do you add your LME? in the boil or after? what brand(s) of LME do you use?

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I've used both LME and DME before and never had the problem though. I used Briess DME and I think the LME was Northern Brewer's. I did a late addition of the LME for both beers.

cincybrewer said:

I've used both LME and DME before and never had the problem though. I used Briess DME and I think the LME was Northern Brewer's. I did a late addition of the LME for both beers.

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i'd say it's either water or yeast flavors.

I found this on line:

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/26895/27616.html?1105228761

There are two water treatment plants (in Cincinnati), Miller and Bolton. You'll have to determine which of them is the source of your water.

Miller
------
Calcium 38 mg/l (ppm)
Magnesium 9.6 mg/l
Sodium 32 mg/l
Chloride 34 mg/l
Sulfate 78 mg/l
Bicarbonate/Carbonate (as HCO3) 85.3 mg/l
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) 133 mg/l
Total Alkalinity (as CaC03) 74 mg/l
pH 8.8

Bolton
------
Calcium 42 mg/l (ppm)
Magnesium 15 mg/l
Sodium 42 mg/l
Chloride 71 mg/l
Sulfate 68 mg/l
Bicarbonate/Carbonate (as HCO3) 77.6 mg/l
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) 164 mg/l
Total Alkalinity (as CaC03) 73 mg/l
pH 9.2

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Not sure if that helps or not, and the information is from 2001. But someone might spot something that could throw up a red flag for you.

What is your sanitation process?

Don't worry too much. If you aren't happy with it I would drink it and Brew again. Some of my first weren't so great, but usually after the first pint it got better and I still got a buzz.

At what stage did this flavor develop? I still taste my brew at different times so I know when something changed.

Have you used these kegs and other serving equipment before? Lines, kegs, etc could be isolated.

If you don't know when the flavor occurred, it's going to be harder. Just gotta brew again.

Maybe it tastes green??? Give it a few more weeks and see what happens.

Reverse - I basically just make sure everything is clean and then sanitize thouroughly with starsan. For the kegs, I clean, take apart the fittings, sanitize, and run sanitizer through the lines...I am wondering if maybe I didn't rinse the oxiclean enough. I used that on my lines but I ran water through it for a while (and starsan).

tealio - used all my equipment multiple times without any issues. Also, I don't recall what the test sample from the FG reading tasted like, but I think it tasted fine. So I'm thinking it might be something to do with my kegging/carbonation but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe I will try to take a sample straight from the keg and see if that tastes any better and if it does than it might be the lines.

I do have a Kolsch lagering right now so I am stil 100% comitted to brewing, but I want to make sure I don't repeat same mistakes.

bcryan - perhaps it's green. It's been a while but regardless of how bad it is I'm sure I won't dump it. I had a bad batch in bottles that I kept for two years just in case.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Are you taking gravity readings during fermentation?

If so, I would be taking a taste test during fermentation and at kegging/bottling at least.

That way you can identify when the flavor occurred.

I think your beers age should be way past any "green" stage.

Your yeasts were different, so if the flavor is the same that shouldn't be the case.

If it were your water, you would taste it pre and post boil.

I'd say taste your lager next time you get a gravity on it.

I try to only take gravity readings prior to fermentation and before kegging. I prefer not to risk contamination by opening the bucket up multiple times. If I ever switched to a carboy I may consider taking multiple readings.

Also, the flavor isn't really the same, but both have a bite to it. The altbier has a little less severe of a bite.

Would not doing a starter cause strain on the yeast and maybe give it a "bite"? Both seemed to ferment rather quickly without much lag.

Also, maybe it's a simple matter of being over carbonated. My regulator has been giving me issues lately and although the beer isn't foaming like crazy maybe the bite is coming from carbonation. Maybe i'll just pour a beer and let it get flat and see if it has that bite.

subscribed....Your problem sounds about the same as mine....I too am still trying to figure this one out.

Oxyclean will impart the metallic taste especially if it wasn't rinsed thoroughly. When cleaning your rinse water should always be hotter than the treated cleaning water.

I'm pretty confident that I rinsed thoroughly but who knows...This is the first I've heard about rinse water being hotter than cleaning water. I usually try to use hot water for everything. Should I not use hot water with oxiclean?

cincybrewer said:

I'm pretty confident that I rinsed thoroughly but who knows...This is the first I've heard about rinse water being hotter than cleaning water. I usually try to use hot water for everything. Should I not use hot water with oxiclean?

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You're supposed to use hot water with oxiclean for it to work best. Using very hot water to rinse and doing a triple rinse should be fine. That's what I do anyways..

Someone mentioned LME. The first couple batches I made were kits. I did notice a "twang" there. I like twang BTW.

When I brewed extract I had a couple batches I narrowed down to Amber LME that I stored at room temp for several weeks before use. If LME isn't used quickly, and stored properly it seems to end up producing a nasty beer in the end (the taste doesn't age out either).

I do not think this is extract twang. I've brewed all my beers with extract and never noticed this before. Also, right now this isn't even subtle, it's makes the beer pretty nasty.

@BigRob - this was stored in the fridge and I brewed shortly after receiving. I've never used NB extract before but based on all their great reviews, I doubt the extract was bad.

I poured a glass and let it sit for about an hour last night and it still tasted the same, so I don't think it's carbonation. Maybe I will taste some wet carboard and see if it tastes like my beer. Maybe it became oxidized....Also need to taste a sample straight from the keg to see if the lines might be the issue.

What temperature are you serving at?

It was around 41 maybe, but I raised it last night to see if it was better warm.

BigRob said:

When I brewed extract I had a couple batches I narrowed down to Amber LME that I stored at room temp for several weeks before use. If LME isn't used quickly, and stored properly it seems to end up producing a nasty beer in the end (the taste doesn't age out either).

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Nice. Thanks for the observation.

hey OP - i'm having the same issue with my pale ale - i've brewed it before with very good results...however, this time i decided, instead of using 1056, to use the wyeast 1332 - same yeast you used...and it has some of the flavor "maladies" you've described...i'm hoping more time in the bottle will help (although it's been well over 3)....

wondering if maybe recent productions of the 1332 aren't up to snuff...?


edit: upon more investigation, seems that this yeast is very much hit-or-miss, at least in terms of pleasing its users...there's even dispute at hales brewery (where 1332 comes from (via gales brewery in UK) )...i'm drinking a blonde ale i brewed with 1332, pretty awesome beer originally, but as it warms up i'm noticing the same characteristics as my PA and i'm not liking it...tart, too much unpleasant bite

at one point i thought i might want to make this my go-to yeast ("northwest ale yeast" - power of suggestion)...now it's something i'll stay away from