Dual stage Love Controller - Can you use output 1 for heat and output 2 for cooling?

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CidahMastah

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I just bought and wired up a Love TSS2 with one probe.

The over all goal is to simply control the desired temp with heat and cooling. However I use a 1875watt hair dryer as my heater. Since the wattage demands are higher for this than my college refridge guts, I would like to use the 16amp output 1 for heating and the 8 amp output 2 for cooling. However all the instructions on how to program seem to use output 1 for cooling.

If you have done this I would much appreciate your providing me with details on how to do this. I tried some of the programming instructions I read and the elements both seem to be firing:

Values set are (goal is to cool to 66F in this example w/in 1.5 degrees heat if set value = 64F w/in .1 degree):

(I bought the controller used so I listed all the values)

Seem to be the most important

SP2 = 66 (R2 = 1.5) [if temp goes above 67.5 it triggers refridge until 66F]
SP1 = 64 (R1= .1) [if temp goes below 64 w/in .1, trigger hair dryer]
A1 = 88
A3 = 40
C2 = INV
P5 = 1
RO = Dep

Other values
H5 = 0
R3 = 1.0
R4 = 99.9
R5 = 99.9
R6 = 99.9
R7 = 99.9
R8 = on 1
A0 = .1
A2 = 92.7
A4 = 99.9
A5 = 18
A6 = AHL
A7 = AHL
Co = 5
C1 = dir
C3 = oPn
C4 = oPn
P0 = F
P1 = -1 (calibration on probe)
P2 = 0
P3 = Yes
P4 = Sd1
P5 = 1
H0 = 0
H1 = No
H2 = dir
H3 = dir
H4 = 0
H5 = 0
 
The parameters c1 and c2 determine whether the relay is open or closed when above or below the set point. There's a manual here:
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/PDF_files/E_90_TSS2_Low.pdf
If you choose "dir" then that is for cooling, i.e. the power is on for that relay if the temp is above the set point + the "r" differential. If you choose "inv" then that is used for heating, i.e. the power will be on for that relay if the temp is below the set point - the "r" differential. Look at the example plots in the pdf file to help you understand how it works. Also, set r0 to "ind" so that the second relay runs independent of the first.
 
You can use relay 1 for heating and relay 2 for cooling. Here are the most important inputs, the other inputs are basically allowable ranges and alarms described in the manual:

SP1 = temperature for the heater to shut off at
SP2 = temperature range between where the freezer shuts off and the heater turns on (accounts for the thermal mass of the freezer to keep cooling the beer so the heater doesn't turn)
R0 = dep
R1 = differential for relay 1 (heating)
R2 = differential for relay 2 (cooling)
R3 = 0.1
C1 = inv (relay 1 for heating)
C2 = dir (relay 2 for cooling)
P0 = F
P5 = 1 (1 probe)

Relay 1 (cooling)
SP1-R1 = Freezer On
SP1 = Freezer Off

Relay 2 (heating)
SP1+SP2+R2 = Heater On
SP1 + SP2 = Heater Off

Example (1 Probe insulated over on the side of the fermenter)

SP1 = 60
SP2 = 1
R1 = 1
R2 = 1

Heater On = 59F, Heater Off = 60F
Freezer On = 62F, Freezer Off = 61F
(61F-60F) = 1F = SP2 (My chest freezer keeps cooling the fermenter about 1 F lower then the temperature it turns off so setting SP2 to 1F eliminates the heater from coming on right away)

I have my R1 & R2 values set at 0.5F and have the freezer cycle about every 2 hours during active fermentation and the fermenter sees about 1.2F temperature swings. Note that my C1 = dir & C2 = inv to use relay 1 for cooling and relay 2 for heating.

Chart1.jpg
 
slarkin712 and Dsmith - thank you guys a lot! I read the manual but some was making sense and some was not. I can see that my relays are set up cor cooling on output 1 and heating on output two, so I can reverse them and that will solve the first part.

I am running out the door right now but I will come back and digest your suggestions. I am used to the ranco controllers, so I appreciate the tweaks that you guys have come up with here.

I may have a few more questions, but thank you VERY much.
 
one question.

When you switch the dir/inv for sp1 and sp2, does that make everything backwards?

i.e.

Does :

"Relay 1 (cooling)
SP1-R1 = Freezer On
SP1 = Freezer Off

Relay 2 (heating)
SP1+SP2+R2 = Heater On
SP1 + SP2 = Heater Off"

become:

Relay 2 (cooling)
SP2-R2 = Freezer On
SP2 = Freezer Off

Relay 2 (heating)
SP2+SP1+R1 = Heater On
SP2 + SP1 = Heater Off

Ah crap that doesn't look right... gotta jet and will come back to this when I can think about it correctly :D
 
Have you considered a lower wattage heater and using the 16Amp relay for cooling? A 20W heating pad works well and a 100W pet ceramic heat element would be a lot of heat...

http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/heat_wave_lamp.php

So the math stays the same regardless of the Inv/ DIR ; ok thanks.

I like using that travel hair dryer because it has a fan and works great. My fermentation chamber holds 2 demijohns with plenty of room. Basically, I since it is so large I want an even heating source with a fan. It seems silly to have the freezer/chiller on output 1 though, I mean 16 amp is over kill by a long shot for that unit to work. However just about every space heater is 1500w.

Was out this weekend so I will have to take another look at the above.

sp1 = 66
r1 = 1
sp2 = 1
R2 = 1

Relay 1 (heating)
SP1-R1 = Heater On (65F)
SP1 = Heater Off (66F)

Relay 2 (cooling)
SP1+SP2+R2 = Refridge On (68F)
SP1 + SP2 = Refridge Off (67F)

I will give these settings a try


I should mention, this is my ale fermentation chamber.
 
so when I used the math on post 8, once the chamber is = or > 68 I expected the cold side element to go on. However it did not...

RO = DEP (edited to RO from CO)
C1 = INV
C2 = DIR
sp1 = 66
r1 = 1
sp2 = 1
R2 = 1
 
I looked at your inputs and the cooler plugged into relay 2 should turn on at 68F and off at 67F based on the information in the manual. Could C0 (minumin time between cycles) be set large and not letting the freezer turn on yet (have my C0 = 10 min)? Does the heating side (relay 1) work as expected?
 
Check that your wiring is correct. Relay #1 uses terminals 6,7,8 and relay #2 uses 9,10,11. For relay #1, one wire will go into 7 and the other will go into 6 or 8 depending if it's set to dir or inv. The same is true for relay #2, with one wire into 10 and another into 9 or 11. Did the cold side indicator light come on or blink when the temp was 68F? Draw up a schematic and post it here and I'm sure we can help. I had a few wiring issues the first time I wired mine up and some people on this board helped me out.
 
so when I used the math on post 8, once the chamber is = or > 68 I expected the cold side element to go on. However it did not...

CO = DEP
C1 = INV
C2 = DIR
sp1 = 66
r1 = 1
sp2 = 1
R2 = 1

I assume that C0 = DEP is actually R0? R0 is the setting that controls the dependence of relay 2 on relay 1.
 
You are correct about co, it is actually Ro, but I typed it down wrong.

co = 5 (5 minutes between cycle times). Does that sound about right?

and when I warmed the prob past 68F neither out put came on.

Here is my wiring diagram... I think you are onto something because I copied a wiring diagram to have the typical output 1 cold, output2 hot. However I am using it as output 1 hot and out put 2 cold. I assume I need to switch some leads as per your post above since I switch INV/DIR.

Based on your comment, should I be switching relay 1 from 8 to 6 and relay 2 from 11 to 9? Based on the diagram below that doesn't make since because the relay could never close.

ab.jpg
 
That schematic looks correct. You need to plug in the freezer into the outlet that says "heat" since you are using that relay for cooling now with the way you have your inputs set.

The LED dot right below "out2" should be on when your freezer is running and plugged into the 8A relay with the way you have your inputs set - see pic below:

Love TSS2 Controller.jpg
 
That schematic looks correct. You need to plug in the freezer into the outlet that says "heat" since you are using that relay for cooling now with the way you have your inputs set.

Right now I checked the wiring in my box and it mirrors the above. The difference of course is that I am plugging in heat to output 1 and refridge into output 2. I did make the adjustments of INV/DIR as indicated previously.

I was hoping to see just as your picture shows above (red dot on output 2 because the probe says 68.8F). There are no red dots on either output.
 
Can you verify?:

P1 (probe 1 calibration) is 0F
H2 (LED Relay 1 Operation) = dir
H3 (LED Relay 2 Operation) = dir
 
Can you verify?:

P1 (probe 1 calibration) is 0F
H2 (LED Relay 1 Operation) = dir
H3 (LED Relay 2 Operation) = dir

just saw that you added a couple parameters. I can confirm the above with the exception that P1 = -1. Just from completeness, I put the p1 back to "0" and no change on the controller.

Maybe I should just go back to all default settings and redo my inputs.
 
just saw that you added a couple parameters. I can confirm the above with the exception that P1 = -1. Just from completeness, I put the p1 back to "0" and no change on the controller.

Maybe I should just go back to all default settings and redo my inputs.

If you can live without the heater right now, program my parameters from post #3 on the graph (with your desired SP1) and plug your fridge in to the 16Amp relay outlet. The fridge should turn on at SP1 + R1 and off at SP1.
 
argh.. what a waste of a controller. I am sure I will figure out what is wrong, but this is irksome. I still have a ranco one stage hooked up to the chamber. If I can't get this one to work I will just not be using it (my ranco is hooking up and the love is too, just with no elements in the outlets). Usually I only need to control one side of fermentation (heat or cold). But I wanted something I could "set and forget".

Thanks for trying, I appreciate it.
 
Here's a complete list of my settings for 66.0F control (modify setpoint for your desired temp). The freezer is plugged into the 16Amp relay and a low wattage heater into the 8Amp relay (troubleshoot with a lamp or something on that relay to see the device working...). Try reversing the relays again after demonstrating that this works.

It's absolutely a set-and-forget device except for the setpoint once you get it going.

Freezer on @ 66.5F, off at 66.0F
Heater on @ 64.5F, off at 65.0F

SP1 Set Point 1 = 66.0
SP2 Set Point 2 = -1.0
r0 Dependency = dep
r1 Differential for SP1 = 0.5
r2 Differential for SP2 = 0.5
r3 Band differential 1.0 = 0.1
r4 Lower value for SP1 = -99.9
r5 Lower value for SP2 = -99.9
r6 Higher value for SP1 = 99.9
r7 Higher value for SP2 = 99.9
r8 Regulation or operating mode = On1
A0 Alarm differential = 0.1
A1 Maximum alarm probe 1 = 99.9
A2 Maximum alarm probe 2 = 99.9
A3 Minimum alarm probe 1 = 99.9
A4 Minimum alarm probe 2 = 99.9
A5 Alarm verification time = 18.0
A6 Alarm probe 1 selection = Ano
A7 Alarm probe 2 selection = Ano
c0 Minimum relay stop time = 10
c1 Operation relay 1 = dir
c2 Operation relay 2 = inv
c3 Default operation relay 1 = Clo
c4 Default operation relay 2 = Clo
P0 Temperature scale selection = ºF
P1 Calibration of probe 1 = 0.0
P2 Calibration of probe 2 = 0.0
P3 Decimal point = yes
P4 Probe to be displayed = sd1
P5 Number of probes = 1
H0 Reprogramming = 0
H1 Keyboard protection = no
H2 Operation LED OUT1 = dir
H3 Operation LED OUT2 = dir
H4 Address for serial communication = 0
H5 Access code to parameters = 0
 
Thanks dsmith - I think I will try your settings outright and see if I can get it working like that. For some reason everyone seems to be using these with the cold side on the output 1.
 
Thanks dsmith - I think I will try your settings outright and see if I can get it working like that. For some reason everyone seems to be using these with the cold side on the output 1.

Refrigerators & freezers use a lot more amperage at startup so the 16 Amp relay allows for that. I put a 15 Amp slo-blo fuse on that relay to protect the TSS2.

Heaters follow Watts/120V = Amps at startup and during their operation. Those are easy to size for the 8 Amp relay. I put a 5 Amp fast-blo fuse on that relay to protect the TSS2.

Here's an interesting website:
http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/startingload.html
 
Thanks for the info!

So I am not sure what the deal was. However I reset the device to factory, and input as per my previous post and it looks like everything is working a it should. I am very happy now.

The fuses are a good idea and I have plenty of room in my box for them. I know that with that little college dorm fridge I highly doubt it takes more than 8 amps to start up, but I will be sure to protect against it so I don't fry my love controller.

I will report back if I have any issues, but I am thinking this was just operator error, or one setting was off that I didn't notice.
 
looks like I have some of the 8 amp fuses but don't have higher than 10 amps, so I will have to hit up radio shack and rewire before I put the love controller into service. Since the hair dryer is 1875 watts I want to be careful. I always run them on the cooler setting, so I am hoping that is less power draw. I should meter it.
 
Check the voltage on the 10A+ 1/4" DIA fuses because a lot of them are for 32V. The 120V ones are mostly ceramic bodies (vs glass) and a little harder to get.

Here's some recent data with the controller setting I posted above but with SP1 = 63F during active fermenation. My basement gets cold in the Winter and I bought the dual stage control to take action to keep the setpoint from beginning to end of fermentation, often with the setpoint higher than the basement ambient.

Graph.jpg
 
yeah I noticed a bunch were ceramic on amazon.com, and mostly 32v on ebay. I think I didn't get any of the higher amperage fuses at radio shack because they didn't have them... now that you mention it :D

I never really thought about fuses because basically I have been using those travel hair dryers on both my ranco single stage, and dual stage in my ale and lager chambers, respectively. Just checked and the rancos have 16amp capacity, so I think I should be ok as long as I am on the 16a output 1 side relay.

Those are very cool graphs, how are you grabbing the data?

my situation in my basement is in the summer I need mostly cooling, in the winter I need mostly warming. But in between when the fermentation starts up, or slows, sometimes I need to do the opposite function. Or with a Belgian wit or quad I bump my heat up to 73F or 82F.
 
The data is from an Extech EA15 with (2) type K thermocouples that came with it.

http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=64&prodid=408

The great thing about 2 stage controllers is that you can hold any temperature you want any time of year and when you change the setpoint it will go there by heating or cooling. Below is a graph of a Belgian Pale ale that has a ramped fermentation temperature and the heater came on when the setpoint was adjusted up.

My build has switches for the relay hots going to the outlets to defeat them (same as unplugging the heater or freezer). Cold pitching, cold crashing & lagering don't need the heater so it's easy to turn it off. Sometimes I change my R2 to 10 to prevent physically cycling that relay.

Graph.jpg
 
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