Gas and Temperature Control for Dummies

This is my second thread designed to help those who may be building a new brewery. I was asked some of these questions recently and decided it would be handy information to have documented on the forum. Again, before I get flamed, I am not insinuating anyone reading this forum or post is a dummy.

The system below utilizes a Honeywell Y8610U intermittent pilot propane or natural gas valve kit (Intermittent Pilot Retrofit Kit). I feel this method may be a touch safer than the Brutus 10 method because there is no concearn over your pilot blowing out.

The Y8610U includes the following features:

• Y8610U kits can be used with either natural or LP gas.

• Y8610U provides a 90 second maximum ignition trial, shuts off, waits six minutes nominal, then reinitiates the pilot ignition sequence. The ignition trial, shutoff, and wait cycle repeat until the pilot lights or the call for heat ends.

• Y8610U kits can be used with either natural or LP gas; it provides timed trial for ignition and 100 percent pilot shutoff on loss of flame.

Each Y8610U kit includes:

— S8610U Intermittent Pilot Module.
— VR8304M Dual Valve Combination Gas Control.
— 392431 Igniter-Sensor* (Not used for this Application you will need to purchase a Q345A1313. See Below).
— 394800-30 Ignition Cable.
— 393691 Natural to LP Gas Conversion Kit.
— Wiring Harness.
— 393690-14 Straight Flange Kit (3/4 in.) .
— Reducer adapters for gas control.
— Adhesive mounting option for S8610.
— Installation hardware.

You will also need a Pilot Burner and Orifice.

— Q345A1313 Pilot Burner/Sensor Assembly.
— 390868-1 0.010" Orifice for Q345A1313.


The diagram below describes a low pressure propane system designed to control the temperature of a HLT. It can be used to control the temperature of any of the three vessels in your brewery. IMPORTANT: This system is designed for low pressure propane or Natural Gas. If using Propane, please make sure your propane regulator is set for 11 WC or less than 0.5 lbs pressure. Please make sure you read and understand the instructions accompanying the Y8610U kit from Honeywell before proceding. The information presented in this post can be found in that document also.

The Y8610U can be purchased from Patriot Supply. Their Ebay Store is (Patriot Supply Ebay Store).

The SYL4352 and Thermocouple can be purchased from Auber Instruments. Their URL is (Auber Instruments Website).

Thanks once again for the info. I know less about this subject than the RIM you detailed.

My first question is the six minute shut down, I realize this is a safety feature but it seems like a long time to be of any value in brewing. Wouldn't it be better if the system set off an alarm and waited for "user intervention" to get it back to a working state?

The module will try to relight for 90 seconds and if it does not succeed will shut down for 6 minutes. The system determines that if it cannot relight in 90 seconds, something is very wrong and gives 6 minutes for any residual propane time to dissipate before trying to relight for another 90 seconds. I think this is an excellent safety feature. I agree that an alarm would be handy to let the user know something is wrong when it didn't relight in 90 seconds.

Any way to override the 6 min reset time?

Just as an example;

Ready to start the boil windy day, ignition times out. Can you manually override somehow and simply watch the burner for safety?

I like the safety aspect, but can see potential issues on a windy day with an outside brewstand.

Cycle the power to the ignition module and start sequence over. If pilot response to wind is a problem make a sheild out of screen wire or perforated metal to block the wind.

RonRock said:

Any way to override the 6 min reset time?

Just as an example;

Ready to start the boil windy day, ignition times out. Can you manually override somehow and simply watch the burner for safety?

I like the safety aspect, but can see potential issues on a windy day with an outside brewstand.

Click to expand...

Kladue is 100% correct. That is why I have a switch on my Control Panel labeled "HLT Gas". The switch simply interrupts the 24 VAC going to the S8610 module which resets the module.

Thanks Guys. Man that is 100% COOL! Great looking panel.

Any problem running all 3 burners on LPG at 11" WC? I am also using the Hurricane's for all 3 and have yet to decide on this system or the Standing Pilot and Asco's. I'm now leaning this way but I already have 2 pilot valves and 2 Asco valves. Should be able to sell them though.

RonRock said:

Thanks Guys. Man that is 100% COOL! Great looking panel.

Any problem running all 3 burners on LPG at 11" WC? I am also using the Hurricane's for all 3 and have yet to decide on this system or the Standing Pilot and Asco's. I'm now leaning this way but I already have 2 pilot valves and 2 Asco valves. Should be able to sell them though.

Click to expand...

Thank you. You shouldn't have a problem, providing your gas plumbing is sufficient. Remember pressure and volume are two different things.

Sawdustguy said:

Remember pressure and volume are two different things.

Click to expand...

Does anyone know if this system can be used with a Hurricane setup? The Hurricane says it is a high-pressure low-volume system. This sounds like it would be higher that 11" WC to me....

I do have access to low pressure LP, I am concerned too about the ability to fire to burners at once. Any insight???

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Does anyone know if this system can be used with a Hurricane setup? The Hurricane says it is a high-pressure low-volume system. This sounds like it would be higher that 11" WC to me....

I do have access to low pressure LP, I am concerned too about the ability to fire to burners at once. Any insight???

Click to expand...

The Hurricane is delivered as a Low Pressure propane system with regulator. Under 1 psi as I recall. That's why it is easy to convert to NG.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Does anyone know if this system can be used with a Hurricane setup? The Hurricane says it is a high-pressure low-volume system. This sounds like it would be higher that 11" WC to me....

I do have access to low pressure LP, I am concerned too about the ability to fire to burners at once. Any insight???

Click to expand...

The Hurricane Burner can be purchased as a natural gas burner (natural gas orifice installed) or a low pressure propane burner (Hurricane Burner, restrictor plate and screw (no stand) - Burners - Equipment). As a low pressure propane burner it is designed to work with a low pressure propane (<11 WC). The Hurricane Burner in conjunction with a low pressure propane regulator will work just fine. As a matter of fact I can lock my strike or sparge water within a degree of my desired temperatures. Remember as I said before Pressure and volume are independant. I think the answer depends a lot on your supply. I think that a large quantity of propane at low pressure will make the same BTU's as a lesser volume of propane at high pressure. To draw an analogy it is similar to electrical power: 10 amps x 1 volt=100 watts while 1 amp x 10 volts=100 watts. It will depend to a large degree on the supply to the burners.

Thanks for posting this info. This definitely makes it easier for me to understand this type of stuff.

I have a question regarding the pressure into the valve: On page 4 of the linked pdf file, the diagram of the valve shows a "pressure regulator adjustment". What is this used for? If you had two of these valves connected to a gas manifold at a higher pressure, would these adjust the incoming pressure to the valves to the correct 11"WC/.5 psi pressure? I was thinking of having two of these setups to control HLT and MLT temps, like this.

Thanks in advance.

I can't find the 390868-1 part anywhere on patriots web site. Who makes it?

Hi,

I'm a newbie and I'm trying to build an HERMS setup with 15 gallons kegs.

I have bought a Honeywell vr8200a2132 but I'm really confused about what burner I must buy.

I will use it in low pressure propane, because I have not Natural Gas at home.

I would like to buy a not heavy burner, because I live in Lima-Peru and I must order it via Internet (the sipment of a 16 Lb burner would cost more that the burmer itself...).

I think that a Jet burner could be light and powerfull, which one could work with my vr8200a2132?

Claudio Catanzaro

Thanks for the post Guy,
I'm working on a new build for myself and guess I'd need one of the Y8610U kits per burner. Or is there a way to use one kit plus other parts for the other two burners tied into the one kit?

Thanks, Kevin

KVP said:

Thanks for the post Guy,
I'm working on a new build for myself and guess I'd need one of the Y8610U kits per burner. Or is there a way to use one kit plus other parts for the other two burners tied into the one kit?

Thanks, Kevin

Click to expand...

This kit is designed to work with a single burner. The controller for the kit can only control one valve and have one igniter/sensor connected to it. I am curious why you need to control all three burners? I can understand the HLT and the MT, but why would you need to control the boil kettle?

OK, so I have my new HLT, 75 gallon stainless tank with a thermo-well. In order to heat with LP I get one these kits. My burner is a high pressure burner I pulled out of a Hotsey steam washer. It really goes! The question I have is about the kits heat tolerance. When this burner is heating everything up it will get very warm next to the burner. The specs talk about a 168 degree limit. I am afraid I will melt this puppy. Advice?

These kits are not meant for high pressure propane, they are for Low pressure propane 11" WC or natural gas. I do not think the valves operate correctly for higher pressure.

That said, the ignition module would be mounted remotely so heat should not be a problem.

OK, so are there ignition units that work with high pressure?

:shrug: Paging Kladue....

Do you have a picture of the existing Hotsy system? A link maybe.

I downloaded the Hotsy Catalog and the LPG burner they show in parts looks like a Ring Burner that I've seen mentioned on the forum. Page 122 shows the LPG valves and Pilot Assy. and also the Honeywell Ignition Module.

The .pdf is too big to attach, but I can email if you want a look. PM or reply here.

Ron

I uploaded it here;

http://cid-349f23f96f636b91.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Public?uc=1&isFromRichUpload=1

Hope it works, new trick for me.

If it is a low pressure ring burner, then these valves will work up to the rated BTUs. Those ring burners can be orificed for either high or low pressure. I am not sure if you can drill them to make them compatible with low pressure gas???

RonRock said:

Do you have a picture of the existing Hotsy system? A link maybe.

Click to expand...

I will see what I can come up with. The burner looks like a mushroom - it has a heavy steel tube, about the size of a TP roll, this is drilled out for the gas. On the top is a domed cap with a series of holes around the perimeter. When lit the flames come out these holes and form a wide and mighty flame.

this is the PID used, correct?

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=102

dudasaj said:

this is the PID used, correct?

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=102

Click to expand...

That would be the one.

Do you have a picture of the ignition assembly installed? Does it mount adjacent/under the burner. The wiring and plumbing diagram is great but is the sparking element inside the burner?

dudasaj said:

Do you have a picture of the ignition assembly installed? Does it mount adjacent/under the burner. The wiring and plumbing diagram is great but is the sparking element inside the burner?

Click to expand...

I don't have a picture, but you mount it close enough to lite the burner. It is not part of the burner.

Anybody use this in a "Direct Spark" manner? Not having a pilot at all. Drawbacks?

I'm trying to decide if I need to plumb for pilots or just wire for Direct Spark. Seems like DS would be cleaner looking. But if they don't light as well not worth the tradeoff.

While the direct spark is not hard to install the problem is the flame sensor needs at least 1/4" coverage by the flame at all times. This is easy for a one setting burner but if you turn the flame up and down it gets rather difficult to find a position that works at all settings. That is the advantage or the pilot, it runs with a constant flame that projects over one of the burner openings to light the burner, and is not affected by the various burner settings. Normal pilot flame is about 1" - 1 1/2" and rises at about a 45 degree angle from the pilot burner head, you can position the pilot slightly below the top of the burner and about 3/4" away from burner edge.

Thanks Kevin, makes sense. I'll install pilots. I'd get tired of that clicking soon anyway.

Now to figure out a pilot that will fit inside the Hurricanes.

Here is a shot of the pilot install "Apparatus" made https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=26293&cat=all&ppuser=3596, he tucked it in over the inlet. Looking at your burner sheilds you might have to cut a window in the side to mount the pilot or try to fit it inside the burner between the spokes. The Q345 pilots are 3/4" X 1 5/8" but that is the plate dimensions, they can fit in a bit tighter opening. Here is a link to the dimension information http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/68-0000s/68-0094.pdf

How long can the spark wire be? My control panel is farther than the wire that comes with the kit and was wondering if I could get a long coil wire to use instead.

Make sure it is high voltage cable. It is a few thousand volts. Check the manual so you can select cable of sufficient rating.

Dont mean to chime in and sound like an idiot here, but are we looking at almost $300 per burner to do things this way?

Im in the early - "thinking about building a brutus" stages.

Cheers

L

What gage wire do I need for the control wiring? From the gas valve to the ignition module. The MV, PV/MV, PV wires.

The harness that came with my igniter is too short. I will check and see what gage the harness is, but it seems that it was 14g. I would not think 14 would be necessary. And I have a couple spools of 18 or 20.


Never mind. I stripped back a bit of the harness covering. The OEM wires are 18 gage. Just so happens that is what I have on hand.

looking through the control valve is says that the max current is 2~3 amps. 22 or 18 is fine for that. I would go 18 awg just because it is a bit sturdy.

"Maximum Valve Load @ 24 Vac (Amps) 1A Pilot, 2A Main @ 24Vac"

I test fired one of my burners today. Was able to make fire, but a couple questions.

I plan to interface with my BCS controller. The BCS has 6 outputs-

"Discrete Outputs (Outs) are rated at 5VDC up to 20mA each. The BCS-460 is designed to control relays, and not to drive high current loads." (BCS Wiki)

Any suggestions how to make this work?


The ignition module as I have wired currently (test phase) ignites pilot when powered up and burner lights. Seems to work properly. I have wired as in post #1 in this thread. With the exception (Since I'm not use'ng a PID) I have 1 24v wire going to 24v Gnd, other 24v wire going to TH-W. From what I have read with the instructions the TH-W is the thermostat (switched) wire. If I break that wire of course power is lost and valve is shut down. So, should I run 24v transformer wires to 24v Gnd / 24v? Splice off 24V for Thermostat power (BCS)?

May be helpful, first is As Wired now, second As Proposed. I can see trouble with the 5v limit with the BCS.

judging form the pic in the original post, yes. You may not need the 24v terminal hooked up as it is omitted in the pic.

as far as interfacing the BCS you need a relay with a 5 vdc coil and a contact rating a a few amps, wire the 24v on the contact side and the coil to the bcs. be sure to include a subbing diode if not internal to the bcs.