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WSURaider41

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Ok, so I am currently dry hopping my first batch, so this question is useless for my first batch... however for future batches I'd like to know.

What is typically the procedure for using yeast? With this batch I simply poured the yeast from the packet into my primary. I have heard of smacking the pack. I have heard of mixing with some of the existing wort or water. What is best practice when it comes to using and preparing yeast?
 
I'm assuming it is dry yeast. It came in a packet, but my instructions with my kit never told me to smack it. And for that matter I wasn't even sure what smacking my yeast was
 
There are three kinds of ways yeast us available for making beer. There is dry yeast and two forms of liquid.

Dry, Little foil packages with yeast powdered yeast in it, that looks exaxtly like bread yeast/ Little granules. You can either rehydrate it in warm water or some folks sprinkle (there's a lot of discussions about this on ere)

236.jpg


Liquid yeast is produced by 2 different companies in the US, Wyyeast and White Labs.

White Labs come in Tubes,

YeastVials1.jpg


And WYYEast comes in smack packs

Wyeast%20Beer.jpg


Smack packs have yeast as well as a small tube of wort to help the yeast "proof" or wake up. When you smack it you breag a seperator that allows the yeast and the wort to come together and yeast starts eating the wort and energizer in there.

With liquid yeasts (both in tubes or in a smack pack) you should make a starter for any beer over 1.020 starting gravity...info on that is here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/how-make-yeast-starter-pictorial-76101/
 
With dry yeast it's always a good idea to rehydrate it and test it for life before pitching it, especially when you get it in a kit. It is important to do so because dry yeast cells are dehydrated, and adding them directly to the wort puts a lot of strain on their cell membranes as they try do draw in sugars. To do this, boil a cup of water for 15 minutes to sanitize it, let it cool to lukewarm temperature and then stir in your yeast. Cover it up with saran wrap and let it sit for 15 minutes. Then, add a teaspoon of sugar or DME that has also been boiled and cooled in a small amount of water. Place the saran wrap back over it and let it sit for about a half hour. Within this time you should see some churning and foaming start to occur. Hope that helps!
 
With dry yeast it's always a good idea to rehydrate it and test it for life before pitching it, especially when you get it in a kit. It is important to do so because dry yeast cells are dehydrated, and adding them directly to the wort puts a lot of strain on their cell membranes as they try do draw in sugars.

That's not exactly accurate, (at least the ALWAYS part, that is) fermentis yeasts actually say that their yeast can be sprinkled or even rehydrated on wort (including the surface of the beer) there are lots threads discussing this, as I mentioned above. It's one of those debates like aluminum vs stainless, or Ag vs extract where it may not truly. There was a recent discussion about that here, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/two-packs-safale-us-05-vs-rehydrating-198654/#post2318350

Here is some of that discussion;

I agree with ya Bob, but I tend to be a "directions" type of guy and at least US-05 says to sprinkle into wort.

If I do that, I have one less thing to clean up later ;)

Revvy said:
I agree. That's what I've been doing for years, since I read THAT on the fermentis website in their "tips and tricks" section years ago and I've been doing it ever since. I sprinkle on the surface of the fermenter seal up my fermenter, let it sit on the surface for 15-30 minutes while I begin clean up and then I move it into my brew closet. And since 90% of what I brew is with safale 05, and I get great scores and comments on beers, I'm not going to stop doing it that way. Some will, of course, argue differently, but I maintain that that is "rehydrating with wort" only not is a separate container. If you can rehydrate it in a small container of "sterile wort" then you can do it in a 5 gallon container of wort as well.

It's weird how they say different things in different places. Huh.

Anyway.

Bob

= revvy] And that's why I think the argument is silly because the differences in doing it an not are probably insignificant, at least on the homebrew scale.

But this is what it says in the current version of the tips.

Water or Wort?
Fermentis yeast can be rehydrated with sterile water or sterile wort.
Whatever media is chosen it is compulsory to assure its sterility.
After the wort has been boiled for at least 15 minutes collect the volume
required for rehydration and leave to cool to the required temperature.
Rehydrate the yeast for 30 minutes.

I'm just not doing it in a smaller container.

And even on this pdf. It says sprinkling http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf

Re-hydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream in a stirred vessel prior to pitching. Sprinkle the dry yeast in 10 times its own weight of sterile water or wort at 27C ± 3C (80F ± 6F). Once the expected weight of dry yeast is reconstituted into cream by this method (this takes about 15 to 30 minutes), maintain a gentle stirring for another 30 minutes. Then pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20C (68F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration.

That's why it's a silly argument nowadays....(like most of them)

I think the yeast can figure out what to do on it's own. ;)

That's just an FYI for you, that it isn't all that cut and dried ;) these days where the rehydrate argument stands. :mug:
 
You're right, always probably wasn't the best word to use; however if we're going to nitpick, on the vials of white labs yeast the instructions state that it is not necessary to make a starter for beers with a gravity of under 1.060, something that most homebrewers would contest. Rehydrating dry yeast is just something I've done since reading How to Brew, as I'm a votary of John Palmer lol. Anywho, Cheers! :mug:
 
That's not exactly accurate, (at least the ALWAYS part, that is) fermentis yeasts actually say that their yeast can be sprinkled or even rehydrated on wort

Why do you suppose it is that Fermentis gives different instructions to commercial and home brewers? Why does White Labs do the same? Why does Chris White give different advice in his new book than his homebrew product packaging contains?

There is optimal and there is what people want to hear. People want to hear sprinkle, rehydrate is optimal, it is that simple. They aren't equivalent and Fermentis doesn't think they are (ask them). All of the homebrew manufacturers say to just dump it in because they don't want customers running to the other brand. They will always provide you with the best information if you ask for it.

FTR it is the temperature that is of primary importance in rehydration, the lower temperature of fermentation ready wort is what causes ~50% reduction in viability. You could rehydrate in 100 F wort but then your fermentation would begin at the temperature which is bad. You could rehydrate in a small amount of 100 F wort but that is harder and no better than just using water.
 
I always smack my dry yeast.

You know, set it on a hard surface and hit it a half dozen times or so with a large hammer. Seems I always get bad yeast though because I wind up pitching some liquid yeast in a few days. Quality control with these dry yeast suppliers must be really bad.
 
You're right, always probably wasn't the best word to use; however if we're going to nitpick, on the vials of white labs yeast the instructions state that it is not necessary to make a starter for beers with a gravity of under 1.060, something that most homebrewers would contest. Rehydrating dry yeast is just something I've done since reading How to Brew, as I'm a votary of John Palmer lol. Anywho, Cheers! :mug:

I go by mr Malty which shows it's really a good idea to make starters when using ANY liguid yeast for all beers above 1.020 OG...

But the biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind.

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days. (Which then one of us will answer with...."Had you made a starter..." :D

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!


But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time. Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast.



:mug:
 
Was watching an old brewing tv episode on open fermentation, and there were a couple of links in the post as well. One of them is on two things you shouldn't do that the literature says you should do:

http://northernbrewer.blogspot.com/2010/03/2-things-literature-says-you-should-do.html

Some folks worry about osmotic shock and then make a practice of rehydrating dry yeast in warm water before pitching into wort. Please don't rehydrate in water. Rehydrating dry yeast in water can strip your yeast of essential free amino nitrogen (FAN) that is needed for growth and proliferation. Rehydrate in wort (just sprinkle over the top, don't stir, don't do anything but sprinkle).

I guess this is from their yeast guru at Northern Brewer.
 
The only times I don't make a starter is if I'm using dry yeast (which is very rare) or I am using recently washed yeast in a one gallon batch, since the mason jar already has sufficient cell count.

I don't see the logic in buying multiple containers of liquid yeast. I mean, I understand it from the point of the yeast company or the retail seller because more sales = more profits but it's a lot cheaper to make a starter and it takes all of about 15 minutes. It's especially cheaper if you keep some extra runnings from your last batch in the freezer. Dump it in a pot, bring to boil, cool and pitch. Other than the price of electricity to bring the wort to a boil it's free.
 
Was watching an old brewing tv episode on open fermentation, and there were a couple of links in the post as well. One of them is on two things you shouldn't do that the literature says you should do:

http://northernbrewer.blogspot.com/2010/03/2-things-literature-says-you-should-do.html



I guess this is from their yeast guru at Northern Brewer.

Yeah that's the point of the discussion we had in the other thread...how there is so many different ways to do it, that ultimately (and dispite remmy's trolling) it's really a useless argument. However we chose to get there, it's going to work....Rehydrate i water, unless NB says so, rehydrate in wort or sprinkle if you are fermentis, makes sugar water if you are brand y yeast, rehydrate in water if you are danstar, unless you are nottingham which won't work no matter what you do....maybe that is. ;)
 
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