Second Runnings Batch

I am brewing a big Imperial Stout tomorrow. Grain bill attached.
Due to the amount of grain I'm using, I think I can get a second batch out of it - maybe 3 or 4 gallons for a 4 to 5% abv Session Stout.

Was thinking that after I've collected all the wort I need for my first boil (5.5gal batch), I could stop collection and start my first boil. Then, either:

1. Continue to sparg my mash until I've collected enough for my 2nd batch, or
2. Do two batch sparges and collect for boil

What would you do, or am I completely off base.

I might sound crazy but I would actually let the wort from the first beer sit, go ahead and sparge and boil the second runnings beer first. I would batch sparge as opposed to fly sparging but I don't know if it will make a huge difference either way.

If you want to, the enzymes in the malts can thus continue to act in the first imperial stout and help it to finish at a dry low gravity. Or, you can mash out at 170 F for a few minutes to kill the enzymes, your choice. You didn't mention the following as an option but if you were considering leaving the second runnings in the mash for a long time, the enzymatic action in the second beer would cause it to turn out with ultra low finishing gravity, bone dry and watery probably. That's one option I would not do. But I don't think you were considering that an option anyway so that's good.

Something else to keep in mind that a second runnings beer always tends to end up tasting pretty thin and lifeless. You might want to steep some extra crystal malt and/or other specialty malts in the second beer to give it some more flavor. Most of the goodness is kept in the first runnings, you lose a lot of character with the later runnings.

Lots of options to think about actually, some just make a little more interesting second beer.

Best of luck to you.

Parti-gyle: https://byo.com/mead/item/1963-parti-gyle-brewing-techniques

dmtaylor said:

I might sound crazy but I would actually let the wort from the first beer sit, go ahead and sparge and boil the second runnings beer first. I would batch sparge as opposed to fly sparging but I don't know if it will make a huge difference either way.

If you want to, the enzymes in the malts can thus continue to act in the first imperial stout and help it to finish at a dry low gravity. Or, you can mash out at 170 F for a few minutes to kill the enzymes, your choice. You didn't mention the following as an option but if you were considering leaving the second runnings in the mash for a long time, the enzymatic action in the second beer would cause it to turn out with ultra low finishing gravity, bone dry and watery probably. That's one option I would not do. But I don't think you were considering that an option anyway so that's good.

Something else to keep in mind that a second runnings beer always tends to end up tasting pretty thin and lifeless. You might want to steep some extra crystal malt and/or other specialty malts in the second beer to give it some more flavor. Most of the goodness is kept in the first runnings, you lose a lot of character with the later runnings.

Lots of options to think about actually, some just make a little more interesting second beer.

Best of luck to you.

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So in your first suggestion - once I've collected all my wort in my brew kettle for the first batch, how long should I wait before flame on. Sounds interesting but wouldn't the enzymes be halted by the sparg process if at the correct temperature?

phendog said:

So in your first suggestion - once I've collected all my wort in my brew kettle for the first batch, how long should I wait before flame on. Sounds interesting but wouldn't the enzymes be halted by the sparg process if at the correct temperature?

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I don't know, most conversion happens in the first 15-20 min of mash in, so I suspect if you do a proper 1-hour or longer mash, letting first runnings sit by itself won't do you much more "conversion".

I don't see that much difference between your two approaches, if I understood them correctly. Normally I would just add whatever water to sparge that you need to get your second batch - let's say 5 gallons, mix it well, and drain.

It may be too late for your boil tomorrow, but for parti-gyles I did, the second beer was always a bit too thin mouthfeel/body/low ABV to be truly enjoyable. I would advise to fortify a bit with some additional grain or extract. You do have a LOT of Chocolate/Roasted grains - about 30%, still, something to think about.

dmtaylor said:

Something else to keep in mind that a second runnings beer always tends to end up tasting pretty thin and lifeless. You might want to steep some extra crystal malt and/or other specialty malts in the second beer to give it some more flavor. Most of the goodness is kept in the first runnings, you lose a lot of character with the later runnings.

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^^This is important. Second runnings beers were traditionally cheap table beers for the poor. If you use second runnings, either add some some steeped grains, blend back some of the first runnings, or simply boil down the second runnings and keep it for yeast starters (my preferred option).

phendog said:

So in your first suggestion - once I've collected all my wort in my brew kettle for the first batch, how long should I wait before flame on. Sounds interesting but wouldn't the enzymes be halted by the sparg process if at the correct temperature?

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The idea was that you drain the mash tun before sparging, so the sparge process couldn't halt the enzymes. If you do a mash-out, the enzymes will have been (mostly) halted. If you want the enzymes to keep working while you wait, don't do a mash-out.

55x11 said:

I don't know, most conversion happens in the first 15-20 min of mash in, so I suspect if you do a proper 1-hour or longer mash, letting first runnings sit by itself won't do you much more "conversion".

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I don't think dmtaylor was talking about more conversion of starch to sugar, he was referring to a more fermentable wort. The longer you leave wort at mash temperatures, the more fermentable the wort becomes because the sugars continue to be chopped into shorter chains. This happens even at fairly high mashing temperatures.

Gnomebrewer said:

I don't think dmtaylor was talking about more conversion of starch to sugar, he was referring to a more fermentable wort. The longer you leave wort at mash temperatures, the more fermentable the wort becomes because the sugars continue to be chopped into shorter chains. This happens even at fairly high mashing temperatures.

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Ah - I got you. I guess it depends on how dry he wants his "big" beer to be.
I actually would have preferred the opposite combination - a bit maltier, "meaty" with complex flavors, imperial stout, say at 10% ABV, and a dry Guinness-like stout at say 4.5% ABV.

Also, some anecdotal evidence - I often mash in overnight (8 hours+) and my wort is not that much more fermentable than when I mash for 60min only. Then again, I usually prefer dry beers (like saisons and IPAs/APAs) so I tend to mash low, 148-150F.

55x11 said:

Ah - I got you. I guess it depends on how dry he wants his "big" beer to be.
I actually would have preferred the opposite combination - a bit maltier, "meaty" with complex flavors, imperial stout, say at 10% ABV, and a dry Guinness-like stout at say 4.5% ABV.

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Yep, I'm with you. I'd rather not have my imperial stout dry out too much.

Thanks for all the feedback. With the ABV being so high I don't want a very dry beer and would like a bit of sweetness, which should go good with the Cacao Nibs and the Vanilla Bean I'll add after fermentation is complete. Not sure I will do a second runnings batch if its going to lack character as suggested. That said, with the small amount of hops I'm using I do plan to go right on top of the yeast cake with a Baltic Porter brew. Brewing tomorrow morning so updates to follow. May keep this thread going with periodic updates until I brew the porter.

Truth in lending, this recipe came from Beer & Brewery Magazine (Apr - May 2016) and is by Neil Fisher, head brewer of WeldWerks Brewing Co, in Greeley Colorado. Been wanting to brew this since I read the article.

phendog said:

Thanks for all the feedback. With the ABV being so high I don't want a very dry beer and would like a bit of sweetness, which should go good with the Cacao Nibs and the Vanilla Bean I'll add after fermentation is complete. Not sure I will do a second runnings batch if its going to lack character as suggested. That said, with the small amount of hops I'm using I do plan to go right on top of the yeast cake with a Baltic Porter brew. Brewing tomorrow morning so updates to follow. May keep this thread going with periodic updates until I brew the porter.

Truth in lending, this recipe came from Beer & Brewery Magazine (Apr - May 2016) and is by Neil Fisher, head brewer of WeldWerks Brewing Co, in Greeley Colorado. Been wanting to brew this since I read the article.

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No, no - please do the "small" beer, as intended - it should be a fun experiment. Throw in some hops, do a boil and you will get another beer out of it!

I agree with 55x11, you should do it. It's a great learning experience and should make a decent beer.

3rd'ed. Go for it. What's it going to cost you? A few bucks in hops and a thing of yeast? Just grab some 05 and 1 oz of bittering and 1 oz flavoring you'll have an entire batch for like 9 bucks including tax. Totally worth the learning experience even if it turns out to be a dumper. if your worried about body throw in some extra oatmeal or crystal if you have any, its an experimental brew so use anything you have... And the keep us updated!

Well, it has been a most interesting Brew Day. Confused about a few things and learned a few things.

Mashed in at 1qt/lb and hit target temp 155(f). pH was good so I let it do it's thing for 60mins. Vorlauff'ed twice to get clear wort, started my Fly Sparge (5.4gal @170degs) and collected my pre-boil volume. Kept checking my gravity and knew my OG was going to be off. BeerSmith said 1.080 but got 1.067. Had a pound of DME lying around so I tossed that into the boil. Beersmith said my Pre-Boil OG would come up to 1.075, which was fine by me.

Gravity during Boil
+30mins: 1.067
+45mins: 1.075
+1:00: 1.083
+1.15: 1.087
+1:30: 1.092

I am wondering why my original gravity came in .013 low, but after a pound of DME I only missed by target OG of 1.100 by .008 in the end. My volume was spot on.

Ok, so on to the Parti-Gyle attempt. I heated 4 gallons of water to 170degs and dumped it into my mash tun and let it sit for 15mins. After taking a gravity reading from the first vorlauff I knew it was going to kiss the drain – only 1.018.

I think my primary question is why I missed my projected OG on the first beer by .013, but got low 1.018 on the first vorlauff of the Parti-Gyle.

Wouldn’t the low OG on the Parti-Gyle indicate a very efficient conversion/mash on the first beer? Would explain the low OG Parti-Glye, but doesn’t explain my primary beer original OG of 1.067.
____________________________
Planned: Baltic Porter, Kolsch
Primary: Imperial Chocolate Stout
Secondary: CranApple Cider
Keg 1: "Suffolk Saison"

I might be able to help you figure it out, but the most important question: Did you end up with the 5.5 gallons you intended, or is it closer to 6 gallons or more? Volume can have a huge impact.

The other thing is the crush. Did you mill the grains yourself or did a shop do it for you?

dmtaylor said:

I might be able to help you figure it out, but the most important question: Did you end up with the 5.5 gallons you intended, or is it closer to 6 gallons or more? Volume can have a huge impact.

The other thing is the crush. Did you mill the grains yourself or did a shop do it for you?

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My volume was spot on - 5.5Gals, and my grains were crushed at a LHBS - Home Brew USA.

phendog said:

My volume was spot on - 5.5Gals, and my grains were crushed at a LHBS - Home Brew USA.

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That's probably the problem then. I bet they didn't crush the grains hard enough.

I have been thinking about this a lot more...... with 20.75 lb grain, assuming a good crush of the grains, you should have gotten an OG of at least 1.100 assuming low mid-50s percent efficiency, or possibly up to 1.140 with 75% efficiency in the first beer. Since you only got in the 1.080s then your efficiency must have been in the mid-40 percent range. Yeah, crush is definitely the first place to look! Possibly could also be a lot of dead space in your mash tun?

The only other factor to consider is whether your mash pH might have been way off. Did you measure it? Was it 5.2 to 5.5? If too high or low, the enzymes might not have been happy enough to complete conversion. However I seriously doubt this would be the issue; I'm just saying it is a slight possibility.

Hope this helps some more and gives you more to consider and think about.

Could the temperature still been high when you measured the gravity with a hydrometer? That will make the gravity appear much lower than it is. I still wouldn't dump the second runnings.. there are always fun experiments to be done with them.. braggot, graf, small beer or boil it down to see how it turns out.

phendog said:

Well, it has been a most interesting Brew Day. Confused about a few things and learned a few things.

Mashed in at 1qt/lb and hit target temp 155(f). pH was good so I let it do it's thing for 60mins. Vorlauff'ed twice to get clear wort, started my Fly Sparge (5.4gal @170degs) and collected my pre-boil volume. Kept checking my gravity and knew my OG was going to be off. BeerSmith said 1.080 but got 1.067. Had a pound of DME lying around so I tossed that into the boil. Beersmith said my Pre-Boil OG would come up to 1.075, which was fine by me.

Gravity during Boil
+30mins: 1.067
+45mins: 1.075
+1:00: 1.083
+1.15: 1.087
+1:30: 1.092

I am wondering why my original gravity came in .013 low, but after a pound of DME I only missed by target OG of 1.100 by .008 in the end. My volume was spot on.

Ok, so on to the Parti-Gyle attempt. I heated 4 gallons of water to 170degs and dumped it into my mash tun and let it sit for 15mins. After taking a gravity reading from the first vorlauff I knew it was going to kiss the drain – only 1.018.

I think my primary question is why I missed my projected OG on the first beer by .013, but got low 1.018 on the first vorlauff of the Parti-Gyle.

Wouldn’t the low OG on the Parti-Gyle indicate a very efficient conversion/mash on the first beer? Would explain the low OG Parti-Glye, but doesn’t explain my primary beer original OG of 1.067.
____________________________
Planned: Baltic Porter, Kolsch
Primary: Imperial Chocolate Stout
Secondary: CranApple Cider
Keg 1: "Suffolk Saison"

Click to expand...

Well, here with an update. As mentioned, the Parti-Gyle was a no-go, but WOW did my Stout come out GOOD. Drank 6oz of it right from the fermenter last night and was amazed. A solid Imperial Stout @9.7% abv
OG: 1.092 August 20th
FG: 1.018 September 9th.

Rich and complex with great coffee and chocolate notes. Had planned on putting a split vanilla bean and 8oz cacao nibs in for 2- 3 days, while leaving the vanilla bean in for 2 - 3 weeks at 65deg condition temp.

Someone recommended I cut the cacao nibs in half, bump the vanilla up to two beans and let it all condition for 2 - 3 weeks.

Thoughts??

That's great, but for the efficiency issue. I think your mash thickness is going to come into play here. I generally get lower efficiencies when mashing thick. You should do the partigyle brew again though. It really is worth it, i have done it a couple or times. You get to make a huge beer and then something drinkable.