Is water adjustment enough to change a beer completely?

About 2 years ago, I brewed a brown ale that was pretty much a copy of Surly Bender. It was awesome with great notes of chocolate and coffee. When I brewed it, I was using Ice Mountain Spring water as my brewing water.

I now use carbon filtered water, dilute with distilled, and adjust my water using BruNwater spreadsheets. All of my other recent beers with this method have come out just as good if not better than the same brew using bottled water.

So a few months ago, I decided to brew this recipe again. I used the brown balanced water profile in BruNwater and adjusted based on that. Following the same recipe and procedures, all I did was change the yeast from Wyeast 1318 London ale to safale 04 (english ale). I could not imagine that these yeasts are a completely different flavor profile, so I used the dry yeast as it was cheaper and available at the time I brewed it.

After bottle conditioning, the beer was nothing like the original beer. It was yeasty and had the banana/clove flavor that many Belgians have. I was terribly disappointed, but passed it off as a Belgian brown ale and got great reviews.

So a couple weeks later, I brewed it again trying to match the original version, and went back to the Wyeast 1318 yeast that I used in the original batch. Same exact recipe just different yeast. Today I bottled it, and again it had the same flavor profile as the previous batch. It was yeasty and had the Belgian flavor. I guess it could condition out in the bottle to taste better, but I am really worried about this batch ending up like the last.

The only thing I can think is that the yeast is reacting differently with the water nutrients. The only other change that has been made is that the original batch was fermented in a glass carboy, and now I am using the Brew Bucket by Ss Brewtech. I can not imagine that changing the flavor of the beer.

I need to hammer this out because I have to brew 30 gallons of this for my brother-in-laws wedding in the next couple of months and they are expecting the beer to be like the original recipe, not a Belgian brown. Can someone with more knowledge on this help point me in the right direction?

If you think it's the water, then just switch back to spring water and brew it again.

Sounds to me like it's more likely your fermentation temps were different on the different brews. Clove and Banana are esters and usually accompany higher ferm temps. Those yeasts will put off esters anyway, but if you keep the temps at the lowest of the recommended range you get a less estery result.

All 3 batches were fermented in my temp controlled freezer at 64*. That is what is throwing me for a loop.

I may have to try going back to the spring water, but I want to figure out if water can have this effect on it. To brew 30 gallons with bottled water is going to be pretty expensive. I think the water is the issue, but I am not educated enough in the chemistry side of water and yeast to know if the water can be this big of an issue.

formula2fast said:

All 3 batches were fermented in my temp controlled freezer at 64*. That is what is throwing me for a loop.

I may have to try going back to the spring water, but I want to figure out if water can have this effect on it. To brew 30 gallons with bottled water is going to be pretty expensive. I think the water is the issue, but I am not educated enough in the chemistry side of water and yeast to know if the water can be this big of an issue.

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But you said you changed your fermenters. It's unlikely that the internal temp in your new fermenter is the same as it would be in your old one, but if you're convinced that's not the issue, then the spring water is your only option. My answer? No, I doubt the water created banana and clove esters.

That is a good point as well. However, I would think that if that was the case with the stainless fermenter, the temp would be lower on the last two batches as the stainless would remove heat better than the glass fermenter. Does my thinking make sense?

There is no way for a change in water chemistry to produce the traits you mentioned. I'd be inclined to say it was some sort of infection or cross-contamination.

What temp was wort when you pitched yeast? The esters are created during the early stages of fermentation and if the wort was not cooled enough it could throw esters...

I chill with a dual coil immersion chiller and always chill my wort to 70*, then drain through my kettle right into the fermenter, then aerate with pure oxygen for 1 minute through a .5 micron stone, and then pitch yeast. I use a blow off tube until vigorous fermentation stops, then switch to an airlock.

I have a bit of OCD when it comes to cleaning and sanitizing, so I am hopeful that it is not my sanitizing process.

My aeration stone is a bit on the older side, but I soak it in starsan for at least 20 min before aerating. Maybe there is some junk in that causing the issues, but then I would think it would be causing the issues in the other beers I have been brewing as well.

formula2fast said:

My aeration stone is a bit on the older side, but I soak it in starsan for at least 20 min before aerating. Maybe there is some junk in that causing the issues, but then I would think it would be causing the issues in the other beers I have been brewing as well.

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O2 stones can harbor bacteria better than just about any piece of equipment that you have. The stone is made up of a zillion tiny holes, most of which will plug with all sorts of things that bacteria find appetizing. I boil mine EVERY time before I use it - It goes in the same pot with the plate chiller (another bacteria haven).

Not likely the cause of the issue you mention here, but good practice.

How are you measuring fermentation temps now vs before? Details please.

Simple water chemistry.... Your filtered water is not going to add esters or phenolic flavors besides chlorophenols (chlorinated brewing water). So as far as your water adding banana or clove. It's a no to that.

The clove note is a phenol... and it comes from POF + yeast. The London and s-04 strains are all POF - yeast. In other words, you are not going to get that flavor from that yeast, unless it mutated. Contamination could be an issue. And I would bet that it is.

Have you brewed any Belgians lately? Any sours? How old are your plastics? How old was the yeast?

From what I know, those phenols/esters can be produced from under pitching the yeast or too high of temp when the yeast are pitched. I had this problem twice making an Irish red ale with 002 and 007.

I Don't know if it makes a difference but when possible I would rather pitch a little lower then the desired temp and let it rise to your set temp.

As far as you stainless fermenter pulling heat faster: I think the thermal mass of a larger fermenter would hold any heat created by the yeast better than a smaller vessel. Are you using a thermo well or just controlling ambient temp?


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I think 70F is too warm to pitch at and suggest to try pitching cooler. I pitch at 60F or so. In my experience the pitch temp is probably more critical than than the temp the remainder of fermentation is carried out at. Also, surly bender is 1.060, so you are also pushing the yeast a bit. Both high pitch temps and higher gravity brewing will stress the yeast and cause esters. Technically, philly is right about the clove phenol POF - thing but I have had some belgian-ish stuff happen in non belgian beers back in the day before I minded my temps.

Best of luck on the wedding batches, been there, done that. Stressful, but very rewarding (if you don't screw it up ).

Deja vu. I had this happen to a strong bitter with S-04. I replaced the auto siphon, the hoses and the bottling wand. I don’t think that was it, though. I fermented at 17C ± .1C in a water bath. That's 62.6 F

The rumor I’m starting is that it was wild yeast from accidentally leaving the airlock off the carboy for a couple of hours.

It didn’t affect the fg, but I got a 29 for what the judge said was a pretty good hefe.

PAjwPhilly said:

Simple water chemistry.... Your filtered water is not going to add esters or phenolic flavors besides chlorophenols (chlorinated brewing water). So as far as your water adding banana or clove. It's a no to that.

The clove note is a phenol... and it comes from POF + yeast. The London and s-04 strains are all POF - yeast. In other words, you are not going to get that flavor from that yeast, unless it mutated. Contamination could be an issue. And I would bet that it is.

Have you brewed any Belgians lately? Any sours? How old are your plastics? How old was the yeast?

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At first, I suspected the dry yeast as I used liquid yeast in the original batch, but then the last batch I used liquid yeast and got the same result. I have never brewed a belgian or a sour as I am not a huge fan of either style. Nothing used was plastic aside from the bottling bucket, but the flavor was there before transferring to bottling bucket.

At this point, I am going to replace my aerating stone just to be safe, but I would think that the 2 batches of brew in between these two batches would have had the same issue if it was contamination from the stone as I used it in them too, but they turned out fantastic. Maybe this type of yeast was more prone to contamination flavors than the other two batches that I used 1056 in.

I measure ferm. temps with the stick on thermometers on the outside of the SS fermenter. I have always used these to monitor ferm temps and never had an issue. Perhaps it is time to step up to a thermowell.

For these batches, I made starter to attain proper pitching levels (according to Jamil's yeast calculator). I will try cooling to 60 instead of 70 for the next batch along with my new stone. I may jump to a thermowell too instead of just measuring by the stick on thermometers.

Thanks for all the ideas guys, it has helped my evaluation process and hopefully will lead me to better brews.

firstly, wy1318 (good) and s04 (awful) do not taste the same. That said, you have an infection but it didn't come from leaving the airlock off a couple of minutes during fermentation. Its probably a good idea to switch up your sanitizer and give everything an extended soak before your next brew. Before you replace everything, brew a simple recipe and use a clean dry yeast like US05 (double pitch and do not use your aeration stone), no secondary, buy a new siphon, bottle filler and carb drops and bottle directly from your fermenter. See if that clears it up then start adding things back. I had to do something similar last fall and I'm finally back to brewing what I want to brew again but it was worth it.

gbx said:

firstly, wy1318 (good) and s04 (awful) do not taste the same. That said, you have an infection but it didn't come from leaving the airlock off a couple of minutes during fermentation. Are you tasting it in you gravity samples? Its probably in your bottling bucket or siphon. Its probably a good idea to switch up your sanitizer and give everything an extended soak before your next brew. Before you replace everything, brew a simple recipe and use a clean dry yeast like US05, no secondary, buy a new siphon, bottle filler and carb drops and bottle directly from your fermenter. See if that clears it up.

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I do not take gravity samples until I am almost sure it is finished (3 weeks), and the fermenter I have has a valve on it to pull samples from. The flavor is in the sample before it goes to bottling buckets. I do not use a siphon as I just gravity feed it from the valve in the bottom of the fermenter into the bottling bucket. I know that the yeast would not be exactly the same, but thought they would be fairly close...and they have been...just not for the better