My Red isn't sour

I don't drink a lot of sour beer, but I enjoy them occasionally. 12 months ago I made a Flanders Red following JZ's recipe to the T. I've left it for 12 months and took a sample this weekend. It has only a very slight sourness to it.

I used WLP001 for the primary fermentation, then racked it and added a fresh Roeselare Blend smack pack. It has a wonderful wine and funk aroma. There has been a thin pelicle on it for about 9 month. It is in a glass carboy with a rubber stopper and an airlock. I opted out of the oak dowl thing because I've read horror stories of it cracking the carboy, and not contributing much to the final beer.

I have no problem letting it sit longer. I'm very patient and my beer pipeline is full so I'm not rushing it.

I'm not a novice brewer, but this is my first and only sour beer to date. I've had enough commercial Flanders Reds to know that my beer is insufficiently sour, but seems to have a good funkiness to it.

Does anyone have any suggestions or comments?

Sorry, it's going to be good in 12 more months. I just brought a 24 month old flanders red to the NHC and it was finally drinkable. I had lines waiting for it.

problem with JZ's recipe is that he ferments out first with an ale yeast and then adds bugs, this isnt the best approach

you should add the bugs from the start or there isnt much left for them to get a foothold and grow to sizeable populations

I generally suggest to add maltodextrin on a first pitch of a sour blend, as this helps out the acidity and funk,

boil up a small amount of water and add 0.5# of maltodextrin, it probably wont hurt to add a bit of DME either, as I typically feed my sours as they age so I have a full batch (evaporation aka angels share) by doing this youll add some food that only bacteria can eat, and a bit of nutrients to grow, do this and wait till the gravity drops back down to the same or lower levels than it is now and I think youll be sufficiently happy

@yodalegomaster
I'm cool with that, although I was pretty excited to test it this last weekend. I had high hopes for it since I normally play around with published recipes, but this time I tried to do everything exactly as it says in the book (BCS). Only to be disappointed.

@ryane
I think that is a good idea. I'll do that this weekend and try it again in 6mo. Any suggestions on how much DME to add? What about adding a new culture?

It needs a bit more oxygen than a carboy lets in. You'll do better with a loose cover like foil.

Bobby_M said:

It needs a bit more oxygen than a carboy lets in. You'll do better with a loose cover like foil.

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I was under the impression that excessive oxygen would produce a strong vinegar flavor. Am I wrong on this? How long do you recommend leaving the foil on?

chase said:

@yodalegomaster
What about adding a new culture?

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Some bottle dregs from a good bottle or two of unpasteurized sour beer is always a nice addition.

I would advise against the loose top aluminum foil method, I had an airlock go dry on one of my first sour beers and it ended up with some nail polish flavors. This can happen very quickly I recently made a starter from the dregs of some old Russian River and Lost Abbey bottles and had a terrible acetic aroma after just a few days.

I've had fine luck with airlocks, the lactic acid bacteria are actually anaerobic (Brettanomyces likes oxygen and acetobacter needs it).

Ok, so acetobacter needs O2 to make acetic acid which is a requirement of Flanders Red. BJCP: "The Flanders red is more acetic and the fruity flavors more reminiscent of a red wine than an Oud Bruin. Can have an apparent attenuation of up to 98%."
This is one reason why oak barrels make good aging tanks for the style; oxygen permeability (in addition to creating a substrate for the bugs). If the beer isn't sour enough after a year, you want more acetic acid and therefore need more O2. You might get Pedio to create some more lactic acid if you wait another 3-6 months but I think a couple weeks or a month with a loosely covered top will let acetobacter do its job to your liking. I mean you don't want malt vinegar or straight Lambic but you need SOME acetic in there.

A glass carboy with a silicone stopper lets in about as much oxygen as a small oak barrel, which is still many many times more oxygen than a the oak barrels used at large traditional breweries.

I'd go the dregs/malto-dextrin route.

Bobby_M said:

I think a couple weeks or a month with a loosely covered top will let acetobacter do its job to your liking.

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Have you tried this? How were your results? Acetic acid can get harsh quickly, and the esters Brett makes from it can be pretty unpleasant.

If you want to up the acetic acid I would age a small portion of the beer in a growler with cheesecloth rubberbanded over the neck (to keep the flies out). In a few months when it is nice and vinegary I would pasteurize it and blend it to taste into the base beer. I’m not a big fan of acetic acid above threshold levels, so I don’t go out of my way to encourage it.

JoMarky, I don't think the OP is using a silicone stopper.

Good info here: http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

I guess I'm just being a purist about the requirement of acetic in Flanders Red. The issue with Jamil saccharomyces pre-ferment is that it uses up all the available O2 before ever introducing acetobacter and other oxidative organisms. Granted, I think he likes his sours on the very mild side.

I suppose everyone's tolerance for acetic is different but I when the complaint is "not sour enough", I doubt it would be an issue.

Chase, have you tested the gravity lately? If you're down around 1.006 or so, I'm pretty sure acetobacter is the only thing that's going to make it more sour (ethanol->acetic).

No, I've never done a Flanders in glass myself. I'm not an expert either.

Bobby_M said:

JoMarky, I don't think the OP is using a silicone stopper.

Good info here: http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

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I was assuming since he said "rubber" airlock he was actually using the silicone stoppers that are commonly used to hold our airlocks.

And that website has invaluable information, including the chart I "qouted" regarding oxygen permeability.

Bobby_M said:

It needs a bit more oxygen than a carboy lets in. You'll do better with a loose cover like foil.

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Bobby_M said:

No, I've never done a Flanders in glass myself. I'm not an expert either.

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Next time I'd suggest trying out an idea as radical as open fermenting a sour before trying to convince someone to experiment with their year old beer (at a minimum let them know that you haven’t tried it). It might work, but odds are that much oxygen all at once will create more problems than it solves.

The only way I was able to get my first Flanders Red (Jamil’s recipe) as sour as I wanted was to add blackberries, the acid helps, and the simple sugars feed the lactic acid bacteria. Blackberries are especially nice since their flavor isn’t as distinct as something like raspberry or sour cherry. It might be worth doing fruit in half and malto-dextrin/DME in the other half for some variety.

Oldsock said:

Next time I'd suggest trying out an idea as radical as open fermenting a sour before trying to convince someone to experiment with their year old beer (at a minimum let them know that you haven’t tried it). It might work, but odds are that much oxygen all at once will create more problems than it solves.
.

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I agree open fermenting a sour is generally a bad idea, even for a short amount of time, Oldsock if you remember the red of mine you tasted in Dec, that one was open to air for ~1week and went bad in that short amount of time, it was a nail polish bomb

BTW I like to see that your starting to make "starters" of sour dregs, Ive had some bad luck with dregs making terrible flavors, just like you saw in the RR dregs, Ive been amazed by how fast dregs cane turns something terrible

ryane said:

BTW I like to see that your starting to make "starters" of sour dregs, Ive had some bad luck with dregs making terrible flavors, just like you saw in the RR dregs, Ive been amazed by how fast dregs cane turns something terrible

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I've learned my lesson, no more open fermented bug starters. I've started keeping starters of Brett B and lacto on hand, probably will add Brett L and pedio to the list. Plus maybe a house bug culture of some sort. it would be nice to make my results a bit more repeatable (although luckily its been a couple years since I made an undrinkable sour beer).

Loose fitting cover = open fermentation? I'm talking about getting a trace amount of additional oxygen in there, not pouring it in a bathtub ;-)

Perhaps getting a silicone stopper is the answer.

Ok, to answer some things.

I am using a silicone stopper. I've removed it about once a month to smell the beer and then replaced it. The airlock fluid has been changed/topped-off regularly so it hasn't dried. There has been a steady thin pellicle for about 9mo. I've been working under the assumption that pellicles form in the presence of oxygen. So if this is correct, I think a small amount of O2 has been getting in.

Despite my greatest desire not to, I took another sample, but this time I took enough to get a gravity reading. SG=1.010. So it looks like it still has some sugars left to consume.

I would describe the aroma as very lightly acetic and plenty funky. The flavor is borderline unpleasant. It has a very very light sourness and a flavor that is hard to describe, but I'm hoping it is from the Brett, just at an early stage.

Since there is some gravity to the beer, I think I'd prefer to just let it sit a while longer, assuming that those points will get converted into something sour. I don't think I want to try the tin foil thing. I've been reading oldsock's blog for a few years, and I trust his opinion in these things (nothing personal Bobby). I don't have anything to compare this beer to since this is my first sour. I don't have an especially sensitive palatte so picking flavors out of commercial beers isn't something I'm good at, though I think I will try when I pick up some more sours at the store.

I can add some more cultures to the beer, but the local liquor store only stocks a couple sours; Rodenbach, Monk's Cafe, and some Lost Abbeys. I could also order something online. Any suggestions?

chase said:

I can add some more cultures to the beer, but the local liquor store only stocks a couple sours; Rodenbach, Monk's Cafe, and some Lost Abbeys. I could also order something online. Any suggestions?

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Sounds like a good plan. Most bottled Belgian Flanders Reds are pasteurized. I had great luck with a bottle of Lost Abbey's Red Poppy in our barrel aged FR. Here is a list of sours with live dregs I've been putting together: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html you should be able to find something locally.

Oldsock said:

Sounds like a good plan. Most bottled Belgian Flanders Reds are pasteurized. I had great luck with a bottle of Lost Abbey's Red Poppy in our barrel aged FR. Here is a list of sours with live dregs I've been putting together: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html you should be able to find something locally.

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Thanks. I remember reading that post, but lost the link. You don't by chance have a post with information on what each Brett and bug does to a beer do you?

chase said:

Since there is some gravity to the beer, I think I'd prefer to just let it sit a while longer, assuming that those points will get converted into something sour. I don't think I want to try the tin foil thing. I've been reading oldsock's blog for a few years, and I trust his opinion in these things (nothing personal Bobby).

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No hard feelings here. I don't claim to always have the right answer. I think waiting longer is always an option with sours especially with 1.010 gravity and the presence of a pellicle.

chase said:

Thanks. I remember reading that post, but lost the link. You don't by chance have a post with information on what each Brett and bug does to a beer do you?

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Here is a post I did a couple years back on brewing with Brett (http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/06/all-about-brettanomyces.html ), but I don’t think it quite answers your question.

Brett C/A – The mildest of the bunch, fruit, leather, and light funk. Originally isolated from English stouts and stock ales. Good choice for historic English ales, 100% Brett beers (especially White Labs Brett C), and for adding a rustic character to saisons. I have yet to try Wyeast Brett C, but from what I have read it is pretty similar to White Labs C and the old Wyeast A.

Brett B (Wyeast/ White Labs) - The “classic” strain responsible for farmyard funk, leather, horse blanket etc… A classic choice for Brett “finished” beer, especially hoppier ones like Orval and Ommegeddon. It can work in a 100% Brett beer, although I have yet to try it.

Brett L (Wyeast) - Cherry with slightly aggressive funk. The cherry tends to fade with age. It also seems to make a bit of acid on its own, but not enough to make a “sour” beer. A component of a lambic, but it can do interesting things alone.

Brett L (White Labs) – I’ve yet to try this one since every time I hear about it people describe the flavor as really aggressive, smoky, funky, phenolic etc… Might work in a blend, or late in fermentation when the fermentables are mostly gone.

Lacto – Works quickly and produces a moderate amount of lactic acid, likes it hot (same bug from yogurt). Very IBU sensitive, don’t go over ~5 with the Wyeast or White Labs strain. Also the main player in sour mashes.

Pedio - Lots of lactic acid in the long term. Produces diacetyl, so generally paired with Brett for the clean-up. A classic component of most sours besides Berliner Weisse. Some strains can make your beer “sick” (viscous) when the weather gets hot, Brett will help to clear this up.

Aceto – Produces vinegar (acetic acid), but it needs oxygen. If you let oxygen into your beer aceto will be there to start consuming ethanol (naturally occurring, no need to pitch).

Hope that helps.

Wow! That is super. Thank you.

The lack of interesting/correct flavors in this Flanders has made me wonder if they are worth the effort. Normally, I have good technique and good recipes (I have the awards to prove it ;-) ), but this one is beyond my ken. Hence my request for help here.

I'm going to let it sit for 6mo and then take another sample. If the gravity hasn't dropped, what would be your suggestion? And if it has dropped but there is still little sourness? If the flavor has improved then I think I'll just continue to leave it in the carboy until I feel it is ready.

chase said:

Wow! That is super. Thank you.

The lack of interesting/correct flavors in this Flanders has made me wonder if they are worth the effort. Normally, I have good technique and good recipes (I have the awards to prove it ;-) ), but this one is beyond my ken. Hence my request for help here.

I'm going to let it sit for 6mo and then take another sample. If the gravity hasn't dropped, what would be your suggestion? And if it has dropped but there is still little sourness? If the flavor has improved then I think I'll just continue to leave it in the carboy until I feel it is ready.

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Part of the issue with doing sours at home is that you don't have the range of beers to blend to hit your final target. Since you are relying on a mixed culture the results are inherently more variable than they would be for a 100% Sacch beer which are more about wort production and repeatable fermentation schedules. Sours are more about broad concepts and having good bugs, the specifics of a recipe are much less improtant.

Some of us more addicted sour brewers keep acid beer, or funky beer, or acetic beer around for blending into a batch that is a bit lacking. Some people might argue, but I had decent results upping the sourness of one of my sours that didn't sour with some food grade 88% lactic acid.

Not worth it? That's crazy talk. I guess it depends on how much you're into sours or not but I just can't justify spending the money on commercials to get my funky fix. The biggest challenge is coming up with enough aging vessels so they don't cut into your production. Just like regular drinking beers, not every batch is going to be stellar.

Bobby_M said:

Not worth it? That's crazy talk. I guess it depends on how much you're into sours or not but I just can't justify spending the money on commercials to get my funky fix. The biggest challenge is coming up with enough aging vessels so they don't cut into your production. Just like regular drinking beers, not every batch is going to be stellar.

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Agreed, its also important to have a bunch going, that way you can look forward to the one that is almost ready rather than having to think about how long its going to be before you are drinking the one you just brewed.

Oldsock said:

Some of us more addicted sour brewers keep acid beer, or funky beer, or acetic beer around for blending into a batch that is a bit lacking. Some people might argue, but I had decent results upping the sourness of one of my sours that didn't sour with some food grade 88% lactic acid.

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Not trying to argue , just adding my experience with food grade lactic acid. I added some to a Kentucky Common that just didn't sour as much as I wanted. It added the sourness level I was looking for, but it felt rather one dimensional. Just sour with very little depth or character, if that makes sense. On the other hand, if you have depth of flavours already but lack the sour, it's a valid option. Oh, and make sure to use a small sample to determine how much lactic you want to add and scale up from there, it's easy to add too much if you're not careful.

Terje

All good things to keep in mind. I actually just bought the ingredients to start another batch this weekend, including another Better Bottle. I think this time, I'll pitch the Roeselare straight into the primary, and skip the primary with Sacc only.