Electrical Primer for Brewers

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I don't want to argue, and I am not telling you you're wrong. Just pointing out that there is a cheap switch easily available that will do the job. I thought that would be useful. Hmmm.

I REALLY don't want to argue.

I understand and can appreciate that.:mug:
 
Hey, this is a great write-up. It validates everything I did with my brewery.

I had a certified electrician look at my setup and tell me I was crazy mixing 120VAC, Propane, Water and Wood. I've been told I'm crazy by people before so this didn't phase me much. When I told him I was grounding all my copper pipe, the motors and the stands he felt a little better, but then I told him I was wiring in a dedicated 20Amp circuit to handle this and he just shook his head.

I work with his brother, and he keeps asking if I've blown up the house yet. :cross:
 
:off: Is there a relatively easy way to determine the amp service rating of my breaker box by looking at it? The main breaker/Common Trip breaker is rated for 60A but I thought I had 100A service. Any thoughts?
 
I built a HLT out of an alluminum kettle. You mentioned grounding the water (is that right). Do I do that by attaching the ground to the kettle itself?
 
I built a HLT out of an alluminum kettle. You mentioned grounding the water (is that right). Do I do that by attaching the ground to the kettle itself?

I grounded my Aluminum kettles directly to the kettle. I used a small bolt at the top of the kettle. Test it periodically with a continuity tester.
 
Slouch, grounding the kettle is fine and is the easy way to do it. If you have the means, you can drill and tap a hole in the base part of the element and ground it there if that makes it easier.

If you have a non conductive container like a cooler then you have to make provisions to ground the liquid in it. Sounds like you are good to go though.
 
Not to be pushy, but when does the next installment come out? Once I get a pump I'll finally have all my pieces to start wiring up my eHLT, eBK and pump.

Oddly, my wife has been very supportive of my hobby. This simultaneously frightens and enlightens me. I hope I didn't miss our anniversary...
 
Not to be pushy, but when does the next installment come out? Once I get a pump I'll finally have all my pieces to start wiring up my eHLT, eBK and pump.

Oddly, my wife has been very supportive of my hobby. This simultaneously frightens and enlightens me. I hope I didn't miss our anniversary...

My schedule has been hell lately with work and school. I might get some time this weekend, if not then it will be next week sometime.

Scut,
Didn't mean to ignore yah man. TBH, I don't know. I would imagine it is printed on the circuit sheet list. One thing to consider though is that the service running to your house might be rated less than the breaker panel, hence the small 'main' breaker. You'll need to know both of those numbers before you can do anything upgrade wise.
 
Slouch, grounding the kettle is fine and is the easy way to do it. If you have the means, you can drill and tap a hole in the base part of the element and ground it there if that makes it easier.

If you have a non conductive container like a cooler then you have to make provisions to ground the liquid in it. Sounds like you are good to go though.

Great thanks for the reply. I have already JB Welded the element into the tank, so I will probably try to figure something out directly to the aluminum.

Thanks for the help.
 
My schedule has been hell lately with work and school. I might get some time this weekend, if not then it will be next week sometime.

I'm in no hurry, I just wanted to make sure you saw there was interest and that your words wouldn't go to waste, at least not by this homebrewer. If you lived near me I'd give you homebrew for your contributions.
 
:off: Is there a relatively easy way to determine the amp service rating of my breaker box by looking at it? The main breaker/Common Trip breaker is rated for 60A but I thought I had 100A service. Any thoughts?

It could be that the utility is providing you with 100A service, but your panel is only rated for 60A. You most likely have to change the panel to get the full 100A. I would call the utility and ask them what the service lateral is rated for.
 
Man, thanks for this! I look at millions (it feels like) of articles in a day trying to get a comprehensive picture of the electrical ins and outs and stuff like this is too often missing!

~M~
 
So if I understand this correctly, then my plan will work. I will use a double pole gfci breaker to supply 220 to my main power, but split off 110 for my RIMS heater and pump, and then run 220 to my HLT, and could run either to my PIDs. I will be using two Auber SYL-2352 PIDs to control my MLT and HLT. They are rated at85-264 VAC, so that will make hookup easy. I will be fusing each component as well - slow blow fuses on the heating elements and pump; and fast blow on PIDs and SSRs.
 
So if I understand this correctly, then my plan will work. I will use a double pole gfci breaker to supply 220 to my main power, but split off 110 for my RIMS heater and pump, and then run 220 to my HLT, and could run either to my PIDs. I will be using two Auber SYL-2352 PIDs to control my MLT and HLT. They are rated at85-264 VAC, so that will make hookup easy. I will be fusing each component as well - slow blow fuses on the heating elements and pump; and fast blow on PIDs and SSRs.

Yes to all. I used 110V leg for my PID, but it will work off 220.
 
That sucks. I just looked at my stove plug and it is only three prong. I don't know how to wire three conductor 240.
 
I just read through this entire thread and looked at my wiring diagram for the rig I am about to make. Granted I had everything right (will be adding an emergancy stop) I think this needs to be a diy sticky. Thank you for putting in the time and effort into all of this and I cannot wait for the next installment.
 
I just looked at my dryer outlet, and it's a 30A 250V outlet. But I'm not sure if it is the 4 prong or 3 prong w/ no ground. There are 2 flat prongs, 1 prong that is L shaped, and a circle in the middle of the outlet which looks like it might be for a 4th prong. Any ideas? I might just have to turn off my main breaker and have a look inside the outlet
 
I just looked at my dryer outlet, and it's a 30A 250V outlet. But I'm not sure if it is the 4 prong or 3 prong w/ no ground. There are 2 flat prongs, 1 prong that is L shaped, and a circle in the middle of the outlet which looks like it might be for a 4th prong. Any ideas? I might just have to turn off my main breaker and have a look inside the outlet

The two flats are hot, the l shaped is neutral. If you look in the 'middle' one you should see a screw unless it is missing. A 4 prong with ground is not laid out that way.
 
Can we expect another installment after the holidays/new year? This is really good stuff!
 
Regarding the dryer outlet, I use one of those. I just use the middle wire as the ground and everything tests out ok.

In theory they are the same thing but reality can be different. WAY to many variables to go into but if the transformer outside your house loses ground then, in theory, your voltages (including neutral) could rise to some seriously dangerous levels. That is why modern code has it as a separate line independent of what the power company provides. When I had my breaker box replaced I was surprised at the effort the guy went through to provide redundant grounds. Also, in theory, even if the neutral is grounded at the transformer, ground potential between your house and the pole can be different.
 
Will a gfci breaker circumvent the danger you mentioned, or is the danger inherent anyway since you're stating the ability of a safe ground isn't really there?
 
Will a gfci breaker circumvent the danger you mentioned, or is the danger inherent anyway since you're stating the ability of a safe ground isn't really there?

I'm not an engineer, but if you have a faulty "ground" then I'm not sure a ground fault protector would work right. In the case I mentioned the whole system would float above ground potential but maintain their relative values.

I had a friend that worked for a company that the electrical system was designed by a Russian immigrant. Contractors would come in and try and drop a 120 volt outlet off a hot line by running the neutral directly to ground only to find the voltage was NOT what they expected because the system as a whole was not grounded. It "floated".

Bottom line? If your life or safety depend on it, run a reliable ground.
 
In Soviet Russia, system wires you!

Well, the way I see it, my dryer has been fine for the 20 years it's been on this circuit, so I hope the brewery is. I've also seen many other systems that use the same method that I have....however, these guys haven't updated their blogs in a while...
 
gfci's are current based, not potential based. The current measured on all legs must be accounted for, so for simplicity's sake lets say 100mA is going out on leg 1 the gfci expects to see approx 100mA on the neutral. If there is only 95mA on the neutral the gfci recognizes that 5mA of current has found an alternate path to ground and trips. (This is the ground fault, not so much there is a problem with the provided ground but current has found an alternate path to ground) This alternate path could be a person getting shocked, a march pump leaking current to the grounded chassis, a loose wire on the control panel making contact to ground, etc etc.

As far as updates go, I am compiling a large document and sets of drawings, The info has become a bit scattered in this thread. I'll start a new thread and put it all in there. Perhaps the wiki too, but that is new territory for me.
 
In Soviet Russia, system wires you!

Well, the way I see it, my dryer has been fine for the 20 years it's been on this circuit, so I hope the brewery is. I've also seen many other systems that use the same method that I have....however, these guys haven't updated their blogs in a while...

Like I say, there is a difference between practice and theory. It would be an unusual circumstance for the neutral not to be grounded, but I'm not trained nor do have the equipment to do the testing if I was there, let alone across the net. That is why I said, if you life or safety depend on it, ensure you have a good ground.
 
gfci's are current based, not potential based. The current measured on all legs must be accounted for, so for simplicity's sake lets say 100mA is going out on leg 1 the gfci expects to see approx 100mA on the neutral. If there is only 95mA on the neutral the gfci recognizes that 5mA of current has found an alternate path to ground and trips. (This is the ground fault, not so much there is a problem with the provided ground but current has found an alternate path to ground) This alternate path could be a person getting shocked, a march pump leaking current to the grounded chassis, a loose wire on the control panel making contact to ground, etc etc.

As far as updates go, I am compiling a large document and sets of drawings, The info has become a bit scattered in this thread. I'll start a new thread and put it all in there. Perhaps the wiki too, but that is new territory for me.

So if you 'short' to neutral all current is still accounted for then? Still that is much better than short to laundry tub with you as the conductor I guess. :D
 
So if you 'short' to neutral all current is still accounted for then? Still that is much better than short to laundry tub with you as the conductor I guess. :D

Yeah, but at that point the actual amperage rating of the breaker will pop. I would almost bet dollars to donuts that the gfci would trip too just because of the sudden surge. So I guess the moral of the story is dont wear rubber boots if you plan to grab a hot and neutral in each hand :)
 
Yeah, but at that point the actual amperage rating of the breaker will pop. I would almost bet dollars to donuts that the gfci would trip too just because of the sudden surge. So I guess the moral of the story is dont wear rubber boots if you plan to grab a hot and neutral in each hand :)

Yeah. Just trying to cover bases here. I once told a guy to short a switch to test it. Very hard to get to the switch so I told him there are two big white wires from it coming down behind the unit. One on the left, one on the right. Jump it there.

Next time he saw me he was all upset because he did as I instructed him. He took the white and black wire from the ceramic block and tied them together and it popped the breaker? Even if I HAD told him to short the light bulb he should have known better. Guy was head of maintenance for over 1000 units.....
 
Great thread and thanks!

Trying to set up something similar to what The Pol did with his electric BK. However the only available 240V outlet is 3-prong. Therefore:

1. There are 2 HOT's 180 degrees out-of-phase. This is the 240V portion
2. There is a ground.
3. No neutral which means I cannot wire up a 120V outlet on the control box to power a pump.


Thanks for any tips.
 
Great thread and thanks!

Trying to set up something similar to what The Pol did with his electric BK. However the only available 240V outlet is 3-prong. Therefore:

1. There are 2 HOT's 180 degrees out-of-phase. This is the 240V portion
2. There is a ground.
3. No neutral which means I cannot wire up a 120V outlet on the control box to power a pump.


Thanks for any tips.

I would suggest to anyone working with electricity to simply buy an inexpensive meter and learn to use it. Unless you take the cover off of your fuse box it will be difficult to tell, but most of those setups have a neutral, not a ground. Even if it is a bare connector at the box it could still have been run to the neutral bar.

That said, a proper ground can be used as a neutral in most applications. That is why I suggest a meter. Would it be hard to run another wire back to your box?
 
Understood about the meter! Just can't test right now, it's at the apartment, and I am not. Will check later.

Because I do rent, it is hard to run a ground back.

In those old 3 prongs is the non-HOT wire a neutral tied to ground? So you can run 120V items off of it?

If in the future, I move and end up with a 4-prong it would probably be best to wire everything up 4 prong and then just use a piggy tale setup for the apartment now.
 
I would suggest to anyone working with electricity to simply buy an inexpensive meter and learn to use it. Unless you take the cover off of your fuse box it will be difficult to tell, but most of those setups have a neutral, not a ground. Even if it is a bare connector at the box it could still have been run to the neutral bar.

I agree 100%
If you are building your own rig and wiring it yourself please get a meter to test with. Simply wiring something in backwards is often enough to permanently damage a motor. It is good for all kinds of things like seeing if the circuit breaker you thought was the one for the socket really was (you can test the socket).

As for the 240V with no neutral it is more likely this is a more then 15 year old plug with the neutral and ground together. There would have been a green wire that was run from the socket to whatever was plugged in to act as ground. After a few people died and many accidents occurred NEC changed that code in 1996.

If you want to use the plug, rewire it so that is has both hots, a neutral and ground. It is not that difficult to rewire, just expensive as the copper wire costs money.
 
Understood about the meter! Just can't test right now, it's at the apartment, and I am not. Will check later.

Because I do rent, it is hard to run a ground back.

In those old 3 prongs is the non-HOT wire a neutral tied to ground? So you can run 120V items off of it?

If in the future, I move and end up with a 4-prong it would probably be best to wire everything up 4 prong and then just use a piggy tale setup for the apartment now.

Years ago when electronic light dimmers were making their way into theaters I witnessed a 'discussion' between a road technician and the 83 year old 'house man' of the theater. The roadie insisted he had to have a separate ground from the neutral. The stage hand told him the neutral for the theater was grounded to the same beam he wanted the hole drilled in anyhow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral
 
Years ago when electronic light dimmers were making their way into theaters I witnessed a 'discussion' between a road technician and the 83 year old 'house man' of the theater. The roadie insisted he had to have a separate ground from the neutral. The stage hand told him the neutral for the theater was grounded to the same beam he wanted the hole drilled in anyhow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral


Hermit - are you saying that neutral and ground were connected for a very long time prior to 1996 and thus should not be too big of a deal from a stove 3-prong plug to run 240V to a 3 pole dist. block and then run the 240V 5500W element off it and wire it for a 120V March pump as well?
 
I agree 100%
If you are building your own rig and wiring it yourself please get a meter to test with. Simply wiring something in backwards is often enough to permanently damage a motor. It is good for all kinds of things like seeing if the circuit breaker you thought was the one for the socket really was (you can test the socket).

As for the 240V with no neutral it is more likely this is a more then 15 year old plug with the neutral and ground together. There would have been a green wire that was run from the socket to whatever was plugged in to act as ground. After a few people died and many accidents occurred NEC changed that code in 1996.

If you want to use the plug, rewire it so that is has both hots, a neutral and ground. It is not that difficult to rewire, just expensive as the copper wire costs money.

I can not rewire the outlet, I rent and while the landlord likes me, he does know I am not a certified electrician.

There is an electrician at work I can talk to who will give me a hand, I just want to get this all figured out (at least make sense to me) before I go and ask him what he thinks (and buy parts).
 
Hermit - are you saying that neutral and ground were connected for a very long time prior to 1996 and thus should not be too big of a deal from a stove 3-prong plug to run 240V to a 3 pole dist. block and then run the 240V 5500W element off it and wire it for a 120V March pump as well?

If this plug is for a stove or dryer then the third wire is almost certainly a neutral and not a 'proper' ground. Each has 120V components. For safety, you can run another ground when you use the unit.

This is why I say use a meter. Check from the third wire, whether it is neutral or ground, and see if you get voltage. Sinks, wall plugs if they have the third wire, copper plumbing, etc. If you get voltage between the two then you have problems. Chances are you won't see anything. Check from a hot to the test ground to make sure it is in fact grounded. But yes, in a properly wired environment neutral and ground are virtually the same. The earth ground is used to have a common reference. If you are pretty far from the transformer or have some other unusual circumstance, then they may not be the same.
 
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