Bottling Saison For Competition.

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Dok

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Have entered a few competitions in the Saison category. I carbed it at 3+ volumes so I bottled it in a short Duvel-style bottle and I have gotten back two comments that I should use a standard bottle. I use those type of bottles because I don't want them to break obviously. I just want to hear some opinions.
 
If the judges are being nit picky about bottling in those duvel bottles they have issues if you ask me. Sounds like they need to get over themselves. They specifically state the bottle size and they fit in a standard case well enough if it's just one or two in the case. If a whole 24 bottles of belgian stubbies showed up, that'd prove problematic for fit in a standard case. Also I'd stop entering saisons in competitions unless it tastes just like Saison Dupont, cause that seems to be what they want everything to taste like.
 
smokinghole said:
If the judges are being nit picky about bottling in those duvel bottles they have issues if you ask me. Sounds like they need to get over themselves. They specifically state the bottle size and they fit in a standard case well enough if it's just one or two in the case. If a whole 24 bottles of belgian stubbies showed up, that'd prove problematic for fit in a standard case. Also I'd stop entering saisons in competitions unless it tastes just like Saison Dupont, cause that seems to be what they want everything to taste like.

I agree fully with you on that. But I felt the opposite about the category. I have entered a SdP clone that I could not have gotten closer. I even pitched the dregs of a bottle. I scored a 30. I guess if it would matter I could use a Sierra Nevada bottle.
 
No the judges are not being but picky they are simply doing their jobs! For competition your bottles are supposed to unidentifiable as much as they can. If you were the only one with those bottles in the competition and someone who knew you and knew your bottles was judging there could be issues. Not that that situation would ever happen, a lot would have to fall in place perfectly, but if you are entering in competition it is your burden to follow protocol. It's unfair to blast the judges because they were following directions/training. It's also rude to say that they were "full of themselves" without knowing the situation. How easy it is to cast stones from your Ivory tower! I had a buddy bottle in a Carona bottle for competition, and the judges marked off for that, as they should, I would expect nothing less. The situation of it being a saison is a tough one however, the carbonation is supposed to be higher than the standard bottle can handle. I have entered saisons before and I only carbonate to the limit of the bottle and hope for the best, my scores have always been pretty good. I think proportionally your overall score can take a much greater loss for flavor flaws than bottle type or carbonation level. Just my 2 cents.
 
No the judges are not being but picky they are simply doing their jobs! For competition your bottles are supposed to unidentifiable as much as they can. If you were the only one with those bottles in the competition and someone who knew you and knew your bottles was judging there could be issues. Not that that situation would ever happen, a lot would have to fall in place perfectly, but if you are entering in competition it is your burden to follow protocol. It's unfair to blast the judges because they were following directions/training. It's also rude to say that they were "full of themselves" without knowing the situation. How easy it is to cast stones from your Ivory tower! I had a buddy bottle in a Carona bottle for competition, and the judges marked off for that, as they should, I would expect nothing less. The situation of it being a saison is a tough one however, the carbonation is supposed to be higher than the standard bottle can handle. I have entered saisons before and I only carbonate to the limit of the bottle and hope for the best, my scores have always been pretty good. I think proportionally your overall score can take a much greater loss for flavor flaws than bottle type or carbonation level. Just my 2 cents.


Also my ivory tower has involved in volunteering to steward and help judge in competitions. So as far as I know from any comp rules and regs I've seen they're being picky. There should have not been any reason to be knocked for bottling in a clear bottle as your friend had been knocked. Well as long as he got the painted labels off.

In fact from the National Homebrew Comp Rules and Regs.

BEER, MEAD, and CIDER entries must be in bottles that hold a minimum of 10 ounces in
volume, and that will fit in a standard case box slot. The measurements of a standard case box slot are 2.75 inches long x 2.75 inches wide x 9 inches high (7 cm x 7 cm x 22.9 cm). Bottles may be of any color and must be free of ink, paint, or paper labeling other than competition entry label. Obliterate any lettering or graphics on the cap with a permanent black marker. Bottles with Grölsch-type swing tops and 22 oz Bomber bottles are not allowed. Corked bottles and odd-shaped bottles are acceptable as long as they can fit in a standard case box slot (2.75 inches L x 2.75 in W x 9 in H; 7 cm x 7 cm x 22.9 cm). Bottles with raised lettering are acceptable if they fit in a standard case box slot.
Bottles not meeting the above requirements will be disqualified.

With all that said I have a question. Is it part of BJCP training and direction to mention how (as in specific brewing/fermentation technique) to fix what the judge perceives as a flaw or area of improvement? I only ask because I think offering or even telling a brewer through a scoresheet to "do X and not do Y next time" is being full of oneself. I've been told to raise fermentation temps when a beer was fermented at 86F. I've been told to pitch more yeast to help dry the beer out more when the beer was sitting at 1.002. I don't want suggestions from judges that are blindly judging a beer, I want the perceptible flaws.

I must apologize for "casting stones from my ivory tower". I didn't know it was also against BJCP regs to have a poor opinion of meaningless and needless judge comments. If a comp doesn't want the short Duvel (Steini) bottles they should specify that. If it's not specified the judges shouldn't be telling a entrant to not use the bottle, it's that simple. That's called being picky.
 
Doesn't make much sense to me. If your bottle doesn't meet the requirements, disqualified. Otherwise, what's the problem? I'm surprised your friend had his corona bottles even judged, all the contest rules I read specify 12oz amber glass or 500ml Brown PET Bottles.

That said, what's the point of entering a saison that pretty much has to be undercarbed to fit into the guidelines?
 
ylpaul2000 said:
No the judges are not being but picky they are simply doing their jobs! For competition your bottles are supposed to unidentifiable as much as they can. If you were the only one with those bottles in the competition and someone who knew you and knew your bottles was judging there could be issues. Not that that situation would ever happen, a lot would have to fall in place perfectly, but if you are entering in competition it is your burden to follow protocol. It's unfair to blast the judges because they were following directions/training. It's also rude to say that they were "full of themselves" without knowing the situation. How easy it is to cast stones from your Ivory tower! I had a buddy bottle in a Carona bottle for competition, and the judges marked off for that, as they should, I would expect nothing less. The situation of it being a saison is a tough one however, the carbonation is supposed to be higher than the standard bottle can handle. I have entered saisons before and I only carbonate to the limit of the bottle and hope for the best, my scores have always been pretty good. I think proportionally your overall score can take a much greater loss for flavor flaws than bottle type or carbonation level. Just my 2 cents.

I sent off an entry to a club only competition a few months ago I received a phone call telling me that my entry arrived with both bottles broken. I am not going to "hope for the best" when it cost $74 to overnight an entry to the competition. Sorry but you can just make a little more room in your 24 case for my carbonation.
 
Yes BJCP judges are indeed supposed to make suggestions of how to fix perceived problems with the beer being judged. That is not being "full of ones self" it is THE JOB of the judge. Now you know next time don't package in odd bottles. Regardless of what anybody perceives to be correct by submitting a beer to competitions you are submitting to be judged by the "official" judges, and their decisions are final.

Also I'm not sure what the bottle dimensions of the duel bottle are but if they indeed fall outside of the measures parameters, than the beer should have been disqualified and the judges did a favor by judging it!
 
Yes BJCP judges are indeed supposed to make suggestions of how to fix perceived problems with the beer being judged. That is not being "full of ones self" it is THE JOB of the judge. Now you know next time don't package in odd bottles. Regardless of what anybody perceives to be correct by submitting a beer to competitions you are submitting to be judged by the "official" judges, and their decisions are final.

Also I'm not sure what the bottle dimensions of the duel bottle are but if they indeed fall outside of the measures parameters, than the beer should have been disqualified and the judges did a favor by judging it!

Well I guess that where you and I greatly disagree. It's the job of a judge to judge the beer, not be a blind brewing coach. This mentality is the reason I hated competitions even when I won.
 
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