Partial Mash vs. All Grain? - Quipment and procedure questions

I've been homebrewing for only a short eight months, and have brewed ten batches so far. My first was with the Mr. Beer kit I got as a birthday gift, and that immediately propelled me to extract brewing (I used Mr. Beer only once). I've had good sucess so far with extracts, but I'm looking for more of a chalage and more control. I've been reading about partial mash and all grain brewing and I have a few questions I was hoping you nice folks can answer. (Seriously, I've been on the forum for maybe four days, and everyone's been SO helpful!).

Is there really a huge difference between the partial mash and the all grain? It seems like it requires the same equipment, and almost enitrely the same procedures, just fewer grains. Is that accurate? Will doing a few partial mashes give me a good head start into all grain, or should I just dive head-first into AG?

Burners. Sounds like electric stoves are a no-go. So propane and propane accesorries seem to be the brewers choice. That means no basement, correct? I should work in the garage, or yard? I live in Madison, WI, and we just had record snow falls this season, so the yard might be out for winter (this winter SUCKED!). Anything else I should be aware of in that regard?

Lastly, I found this on the Homebrewers Outpost. Does it seem like a good deal? What else should I anticipate purchasing to move up to grain brews? I'm not terribly handy myself so I'd be affraid of screwing up a home-made lauter tun.

Sorry for the lengthy post, I just have lots of questions. I won't be ready to upgrade for another 2-3 months as I'll be getting married in 10 weeks and really need to focus on that right now (imagine that) (plus, my finace is all about using some wedding cash towards the upgrade, that's why I love her!). So I figured I should use this time to get ready.
Thanks for taking the time to read, and hopefuly respond!!
-Action Jacksonbrown

First, Welcome!

Second, don't buy that kit. You can assemble it for significantly less than that yourself, and probably with equipment that will suit your needs better.

Many people progress through the extract/pm/ag cycle. PM and AG are very similar, but there's definitely some techniques and equipment needed that are specific to AG. I moved from extract, to PM, then to AG and am still trying to nail-out some efficiency issues. I'm satisfied with the progression.

Electric stoves may work, but they suck a ton of energy and will burn out. I've burnt out 2 burners on my stove before I bought a turkey fryer. No basement, correct.

Make sure you check out www.howtobrew.com and spend some time reading in the forums. There's a wealth of information here, and we're always happy to help.

As for no basement brewing, check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/JoePolvino
Lots of other good stuff in there too.

As far as I know he hasn't burnt his house down . . . . . yet

The main difference between PM and AG is that you can still do 5 gallon finished batches with partial boils with partial mash. AG really requires full boils of 6.5 gallons. That has several implications:

Bigger pot, bigger burner, bigger mash tun, and you'll need a wort chiller.

Other than that, you're right. They are very similar in process.

partial-mash makes getting consistent beer easier since the malt extract should be the same every time, with all grain a slight temperature variation can give you a very different beer, but all-grain gives you greater control over the malt profile and it allows you to use things like oatmeal which I have never seen as an extract.
All-grain also makes for a much longer brew day with usually at least a 60 minute temperature rest to convert the starches to sugar and the sparging needs to take at least an hour for good efficiency plus with a full 6.5 gallons (for a five gallon batch) or so to boil heating it up and cooling it down takes longer.
Equipment wise you need at least a mashtun large enough to hold the grain, 7 gallon stock pot or cooler is plenty large enough for 5 gallon batches and 12 gallon pot should be adequate for 10 gallon batches, it also needs a false bottom or manifold to sparge the grain. you need a hot liquor tank to heat up mash / sparge water, but you can get that cheap since its just for hot water a aluminum pot should do the job. depending on the system you use you may need a collection vessel for the wort during sparging but any thing food grade of a large enough volume should work. With partial mash you can hold the relatively small amount of grain in a nylon bag or strain it with a regular kitchen strainer, with all-grain you need a sparging system, there are many different methods from picnic cooler and stock pots with false bottoms or manifolds to stacked 6.5 gallon food grade plastic buckets with one that has a million holes drilled in the bottom.
one benefit (if you dont count your time as valuable) is the price, the ingredients for all grain tend to cost a bit less than for partial-mash the pale base malt is cheaper per volume for the same gravity (assume halfway decent efficiency) than the equivalent amount of extract. I've also read that with a full boil hop utilization is better so you might need slightly less hops.
There are a million different systems people use for all-grain, you can find tons of pictures online the possibilities are endless. I would choose between PM and AG based on time and equipment not difficulty. My first batch which was also my first AG batch was a little scary and I was sure I ruined it more than once, I also didnt have proper sparging equipment or a wort chiller (I just put the pot in a sink full of ice water) but it came out great and I've been brewing AG ever since.

The only reason most people go the partial mash route is because they are unable to do a full boil for whatever reason.

+1 on not buying the kit. You want more than 5 gallons for your MLT. The most grain you'll ever fit in there is about 13 pounds and then you're going to have a super thick mash and your efficiency will suffer. Go a step up in size.

Jackson Brown - I have been doing partial mash since my second batch and have been slowly getting equipment for the AG move. I wouldn't get that kit. When I spend the money I am thinking of piecing together the most versatile equipment I can get. With a propane burner and keggle and a 10-15 gallon cooler I am going to attempt to be able to do 10 gal batches to make up for the extra time. I still have some things to learn before I put the money down on the big stuff, but spending a little more once makes more sense to me than spending twice if it can be avoided.

Good luck and welcome.

+1 on not getting that setup you can do it way cheaper and to be honest it's really easy to make that stuff just look in the DIY threads. I went from extract/steep brewing straight to AG. I've only been doing it a couple of months now, and yes efficiency can be an issue, but I think it's way more fun, albeit a longer process, and the beer that you make, while not always turning out correctly to style, is far superior to extract. People always said my extract brews were harsh, which I agreed with them, SWMBO didn't even like beer until I taped my first allgrain the other day now I think I have her hooked. If you have trouble doing full boils you may want to go with partial mash but I bet you'll get enough money to buy a propane burner and a larger kettle, or you could always find a Sanke keg like I just did and make a keggle.

IMHO, regardless if your are following extract, PM or AG methods, you will find a huge benefit for doing a full boil. I would recommend following the backwards method. What I mean is, buy a kettle or keg that would allow you to do at least a full 7.5 gal boil. If you can do that, then it's not that far of a reach to a 15.5 gal keg that will allow you to boil 12-13 gal for a 10 gal batch. From there, find yourself a good deal on a 10 gal Igloo cooler that can serve as you Lauter / Mash tun. From this point, you should be able to produce a quality 5 or 10 gal brew.

When it comes to skill or even timing. I went from extract / grain steeping, right to AG. The reason why I did that, was because I looked at what it was going to require for time and skill to complete an AG and the same for a PM. And they were the same thing to me. So my logic was that I was making damn good brews with extract, keep doing that while I was saving my cash to procure enough for my Lauter / Mash Tun. Once I found that (at a steal for $16 bucks for a 10 gal igloo at Home depot!) I started with a 5 gal AG brew. Save some more and buy a used Keg from a friend of mine that works at a beer distributor. I paid him $100 for it to dissapear off of his manifest. But that's what I was going to pay on ebay, so I made that decision myself. Next thing you know, I've got 10 gal of the best beer I've ever had...because it's mine!

Thank you all for the responses, keep em coming!
Pertaining to Jay's response, pardon my ignorance, but what's a full boil? Is that essentially an AG boil without the sparge? If you could clarify, I would appreciate it as your suggestion sounds pretty reasonable! Thanks!

A full boil means boiling with the full volume of the batch your brewing, for example maybe 6.5 gallons for a 5 gallon batch allowing for some evaporation during the boil. many PM brewers do a concentrated boil just a few gallons out of a 5 gallon batch and then pour it on top of a couple of gallons of very cold water in the carboy, this allows for smaller boiling vessel and eliminates the need for a wort chiller. doing a full boil gives better hop utilization.

Full boil is where you boil all of the wort instead of doing a water addition after boil to get to the desired final gallons at pitching. For example if you where to do a 5 gal batch you may boil 6 gallons of wort for an hour knowing that you will loose 1 gal due to evaporation. A lot of people that don't have the boil capacity will boil say 3 gallons and then add 2 gallons of sanitized water to the wort at time of cooling to bring their batch up to 5 gallons with "full boil" you don't do this.

That is very interesting. I have not heard of that up until now, and I am intrigued. Are there any specific advantages to that other that the hop utilization already mentioned?

It is true that lower gravities will allow more hop utilization, however mostly full boils are required for all-grain due to the fact that after drain off and sparging you will end up with more than a target volume to keep your efficiencies up. A lot of guys on here will sparge at least twice to extract as much sugars a possible from the grain this in turn brings your water volume up. When doing all-grain you often go with a set volume of water say 1.5 quarts per pound of grain for mashing and then you may do the same volume of water for sparging. This will give you more than you intended final volume, this is ok however because you know you will loose around a gallon per hour during boil due to evaporation. A good resource to check out is John palmer guide to brewing this may clear up some of your questions

Ok, going all-grain in the spring here. I really have no desire to ever make a 15 gallon batch...and it seems like a lot of work to go through for 5 gallons, so 10 gallon batches is what I'm aiming for. Let me get this straight..for 10 gallons, I'm going to need1 15 gallon keg(kettle), and what, a 10 or 15 gallon MLT? (I intend on making one from a cooler) Are the rectangular ones preferred over the round ones? Keep in mind, I like to make some pretty high gravity brews which might require a lot of grain. Also, burners...is my turkey fryer propane burner not enough to handle this? Would I need anything else? (I've got a 24 quart kettle now for 5 gallon batches).