1 PID Electric Brewery

I have been borrowing a friends equipment for a nice AG setup (propane) and I'm ready to get my own system. I'm thinking the best route is an ebrew system.

I have been doing a lot of research about an electric brewery since I have a 240V/50A setup in my garage that is not in use. There are some awesome builds on this forum and so much information that I think I'm ready to take the dive into this project.

I was wondering if anyone has ever built one of these systems using 1 pid shared between 2 elements (4500W?) using a selector switch. I'd like to see a wiring diagram for this system and any suggestions or pitfalls with this setup. Thanks guys!

There's been a lot of threads recently on the subject, but the general consensus is generally it's not possible. PID differences, etc etc.

edit: apparently I have no idea what I'm talking about and shouldn't post. Heh.

The proportional, integral and derivative tuning parameters will be different for each temperature you are trying to control. With temperature control, derivative is used which leads to poor control if not tuned properly. So basically what you end up with in your proposed setup is one loop that controls well and another one that is out of control. Unless you had a way to pass tuning parameters into the PID loop based on what is being controlled you won't have much luck with the proposed setup.

I built what you suggest. I've used it at least 50 times. One of the elements is for the HLT, the other is in the boil kettle. I only had 30A available, so it didn't really make much sense to have 2 PIDs when they could never both be active.

See here for more info. If you have questions about the schematic, which is attached in PDF form, just ask.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/240vac-toolbox-control-panel-pics-184296/

passedpawn said:

I built what you suggest. I've used it at least 50 times. One of the elements is for the HLT, the other is in the boil kettle. I only had 30A available, so it didn't really make much sense to have 2 PIDs when they could never both be active.

See here for more info. If you have questions about the schematic, which is attached in PDF form, just ask.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/240vac-toolbox-control-panel-pics-184296/

Click to expand...

Sweet setup. You are just using the PID controller in auto for 1 temperature, correct?

Stevevliet,

Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy participating here.

What you are trying to achieve can be easily done. A single PID set up to control the temperature in a HLT and then switched to control the rate of the boil in your BOIL kettle is all you need. You will need a pump (or 2) as well.

Here is a diagram that might interest you as a starting point:

As always - click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17"):

Stevevilet,
I am near completion on the exact system. You run the PID in auto mode for the HLT and when time to boil, switch to manual mode and set the element on/off time as a percentage once you reach a boil.
I used PJ’s diagram he posted with minor additions of lights for the pump switch and I added a cooling fan.
Dan

And to add to others, tune the PID on the element that you most care about accurate temp control on. Typically this means you autotune it on the HLT, since that's where exact temps matter. It might run a bit rampant with the BK, but who cares, typically you are in manual mode and cranking power into it anyway.

wubears71 said:

Sweet setup. You are just using the PID controller in auto for 1 temperature, correct?

Click to expand...

Correct.

I could use in auto for both kettles, but you're right, the BK doesn't need auto mode. I tuned the PID for the HLT, and also calibrated the offset for the temp sensor for that one too.

I think the BK is within a degree or two of being correct though. I like to see that temp when I'm chilling.

passedpawn said:

Correct.

I could use in auto for both kettles, but you're right, the BK doesn't need auto mode. I tuned the PID for the HLT, and also calibrated the offset for the temp sensor for that one too.

I think the BK is within a degree or two of being correct though. I like to see that temp when I'm chilling.

Click to expand...

Cool.

WOW!! what a response. Thank you guys!
I have two pumps on order and I will be getting a parts list together for this build.

wubears71 said:

The proportional, integral and derivative tuning parameters will be different for each temperature you are trying to control. With temperature control, derivative is used which leads to poor control if not tuned properly. So basically what you end up with in your proposed setup is one loop that controls well and another one that is out of control. Unless you had a way to pass tuning parameters into the PID loop based on what is being controlled you won't have much luck with the proposed setup.

Click to expand...

I guess I wasn't clear with what I was hoping to do here. I have used these PID controllers quite extensively at work heating up tensile specimens, I’m a mechanical engineer. I would use 1 pid, then use a switch to change all the instrumentation in place to apply the power to the BK instead of the HLT. Tuning these PID controllers is pretty easy and the manuals that are provided help with this process. Do you still think I’ll have issues?

passedpawn said:

I built what you suggest. I've used it at least 50 times. One of the elements is for the HLT, the other is in the boil kettle. I only had 30A available, so it didn't really make much sense to have 2 PIDs when they could never both be active.

See here for more info. If you have questions about the schematic, which is attached in PDF form, just ask.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/240vac-toolbox-control-panel-pics-184296/

Click to expand...

Very nice! I’ll have to read through this build. Do you see any limitations with your system where you wish you had 2 PIDS?

P-J said:

Stevevliet,

Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy participating here.

What you are trying to achieve can be easily done. A single PID set up to control the temperature in a HLT and then switched to control the rate of the boil in your BOIL kettle is all you need. You will need a pump (or 2) as well.

Here is a diagram that might interest you as a starting point:

Click to expand...

I was hoping you would chime in. I’ve seen you involved in just about everyone’s thread I have seen. I found a copy of this diagram but it was too small to see the details. This is pretty much exactly what I was looking at doing.
Do you think it would be possible to use a selector switch from the BK to the HLT to change the temperature input and control a different element? I’m thinking about using 2 different contactors but I was hoping to hear any suggestions you may have.

dan6310 said:

Stevevilet,
I am near completion on the exact system. You run the PID in auto mode for the HLT and when time to boil, switch to manual mode and set the element on/off time as a percentage once you reach a boil.
I used PJ’s diagram he posted with minor additions of lights for the pump switch and I added a cooling fan.
Dan

Click to expand...

I read this thread and this is what sparked my idea . Do you have any suggestions on what you would have done differently if you were to do it all over again?

shortyjacobs said:

And to add to others, tune the PID on the element that you most care about accurate temp control on. Typically this means you autotune it on the HLT, since that's where exact temps matter. It might run a bit rampant with the BK, but who cares, typically you are in manual mode and cranking power into it anyway.

Click to expand...

Perfect! I’ll set it up this way. Thank you!

WOW!! what a response. Thank you guys!
I have two pumps on order and I will be getting a parts list together for this build.

wubears71 said:

The proportional, integral and derivative tuning parameters will be different for each temperature you are trying to control. With temperature control, derivative is used which leads to poor control if not tuned properly. So basically what you end up with in your proposed setup is one loop that controls well and another one that is out of control. Unless you had a way to pass tuning parameters into the PID loop based on what is being controlled you won't have much luck with the proposed setup.

Click to expand...

I guess I wasn't clear with what I was hoping to do here. I have used these PID controllers quite extensively at work heating up tensile specimens, I’m a mechanical engineer. I would use 1 pid, then use a switch to change all the instrumentation in place to apply the power to the BK instead of the HLT. Tuning these PID controllers is pretty easy and the manuals that are provided help with this process. Do you still think I’ll have issues?

passedpawn said:

I built what you suggest. I've used it at least 50 times. One of the elements is for the HLT, the other is in the boil kettle. I only had 30A available, so it didn't really make much sense to have 2 PIDs when they could never both be active.

See here for more info. If you have questions about the schematic, which is attached in PDF form, just ask.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/240vac-toolbox-control-panel-pics-184296/

Click to expand...

Very nice! I’ll have to read through this build. Do you see any limitations with your system where you wish you had 2 PIDS?

P-J said:

Stevevliet,

Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy participating here.

What you are trying to achieve can be easily done. A single PID set up to control the temperature in a HLT and then switched to control the rate of the boil in your BOIL kettle is all you need. You will need a pump (or 2) as well.

Here is a diagram that might interest you as a starting point:

Click to expand...

I was hoping you would chime in. I’ve seen you involved in just about everyone’s thread I have seen. I found a copy of this diagram but it was too small to see the details. This is pretty much exactly what I was looking at doing.
Do you think it would be possible to use a selector switch from the BK to the HLT to change the temperature input and control a different element? I’m thinking about using 2 different contactors but I was hoping to hear any suggestions you may have.

dan6310 said:

Stevevilet,
I am near completion on the exact system. You run the PID in auto mode for the HLT and when time to boil, switch to manual mode and set the element on/off time as a percentage once you reach a boil.
I used PJ’s diagram he posted with minor additions of lights for the pump switch and I added a cooling fan.
Dan

Click to expand...

I read this thread and this is what sparked my idea . Do you have any suggestions on what you would have done differently if you were to do it all over again?

shortyjacobs said:

And to add to others, tune the PID on the element that you most care about accurate temp control on. Typically this means you autotune it on the HLT, since that's where exact temps matter. It might run a bit rampant with the BK, but who cares, typically you are in manual mode and cranking power into it anyway.

Click to expand...

Perfect! I’ll set it up this way. Thank you!

WOW!! what a response. Thank you guys!
I have two pumps on order and I will be getting a parts list together for this build.

wubears71 said:

The proportional, integral and derivative tuning parameters will be different for each temperature you are trying to control. With temperature control, derivative is used which leads to poor control if not tuned properly. So basically what you end up with in your proposed setup is one loop that controls well and another one that is out of control. Unless you had a way to pass tuning parameters into the PID loop based on what is being controlled you won't have much luck with the proposed setup.

Click to expand...

I guess I wasn't clear with what I was hoping to do here. I have used these PID controllers quite extensively at work heating up tensile specimens, I’m a mechanical engineer. I would use 1 pid, then use a switch to change all the instrumentation in place to apply the power to the BK instead of the HLT. Tuning these PID controllers is pretty easy and the manuals that are provided help with this process. Do you still think I’ll have issues?

passedpawn said:

I built what you suggest. I've used it at least 50 times. One of the elements is for the HLT, the other is in the boil kettle. I only had 30A available, so it didn't really make much sense to have 2 PIDs when they could never both be active.

See here for more info. If you have questions about the schematic, which is attached in PDF form, just ask.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/240vac-toolbox-control-panel-pics-184296/

Click to expand...

Very nice! I’ll have to read through this build. Do you see any limitations with your system where you wish you had 2 PIDS?

P-J said:

Stevevliet,

Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy participating here.

What you are trying to achieve can be easily done. A single PID set up to control the temperature in a HLT and then switched to control the rate of the boil in your BOIL kettle is all you need. You will need a pump (or 2) as well.

Here is a diagram that might interest you as a starting point:

Click to expand...

I was hoping you would chime in. I’ve seen you involved in just about everyone’s thread I have seen. I found a copy of this diagram but it was too small to see the details. This is pretty much exactly what I was looking at doing.
Do you think it would be possible to use a selector switch from the BK to the HLT to change the temperature input and control a different element? I’m thinking about using 2 different contactors but I was hoping to hear any suggestions you may have.

dan6310 said:

Stevevilet,
I am near completion on the exact system. You run the PID in auto mode for the HLT and when time to boil, switch to manual mode and set the element on/off time as a percentage once you reach a boil.
I used PJ’s diagram he posted with minor additions of lights for the pump switch and I added a cooling fan.
Dan

Click to expand...

I read this thread and this is what sparked my idea . Do you have any suggestions on what you would have done differently if you were to do it all over again?

shortyjacobs said:

And to add to others, tune the PID on the element that you most care about accurate temp control on. Typically this means you autotune it on the HLT, since that's where exact temps matter. It might run a bit rampant with the BK, but who cares, typically you are in manual mode and cranking power into it anyway.

Click to expand...

Perfect! I’ll set it up this way. Thank you!

WOW!! what a response. Thank you guys!
I have two pumps on order and I will be getting a parts list together for this build.

wubears71 said:

The proportional, integral and derivative tuning parameters will be different for each temperature you are trying to control. With temperature control, derivative is used which leads to poor control if not tuned properly. So basically what you end up with in your proposed setup is one loop that controls well and another one that is out of control. Unless you had a way to pass tuning parameters into the PID loop based on what is being controlled you won't have much luck with the proposed setup.

Click to expand...

I guess I wasn't clear with what I was hoping to do here. I have used these PID controllers quite extensively at work heating up tensile specimens, I’m a mechanical engineer. I would use 1 pid, then use a switch to change all the instrumentation in place to apply the power to the BK instead of the HLT. Tuning these PID controllers is pretty easy and the manuals that are provided help with this process. Do you still think I’ll have issues?

passedpawn said:

I built what you suggest. I've used it at least 50 times. One of the elements is for the HLT, the other is in the boil kettle. I only had 30A available, so it didn't really make much sense to have 2 PIDs when they could never both be active.

See here for more info. If you have questions about the schematic, which is attached in PDF form, just ask.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/240vac-toolbox-control-panel-pics-184296/

Click to expand...

Very nice! I’ll have to read through this build. Do you see any limitations with your system where you wish you had 2 PIDS?

P-J said:

Stevevliet,

Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy participating here.

What you are trying to achieve can be easily done. A single PID set up to control the temperature in a HLT and then switched to control the rate of the boil in your BOIL kettle is all you need. You will need a pump (or 2) as well.

Here is a diagram that might interest you as a starting point:

Click to expand...

I was hoping you would chime in. I’ve seen you involved in just about everyone’s thread I have seen. I found a copy of this diagram but it was too small to see the details. This is pretty much exactly what I was looking at doing.
Do you think it would be possible to use a selector switch from the BK to the HLT to change the temperature input and control a different element? I’m thinking about using 2 different contactors but I was hoping to hear any suggestions you may have.

dan6310 said:

Stevevilet,
I am near completion on the exact system. You run the PID in auto mode for the HLT and when time to boil, switch to manual mode and set the element on/off time as a percentage once you reach a boil.
I used PJ’s diagram he posted with minor additions of lights for the pump switch and I added a cooling fan.
Dan

Click to expand...

I read this thread and this is what sparked my idea . Do you have any suggestions on what you would have done differently if you were to do it all over again?

shortyjacobs said:

And to add to others, tune the PID on the element that you most care about accurate temp control on. Typically this means you autotune it on the HLT, since that's where exact temps matter. It might run a bit rampant with the BK, but who cares, typically you are in manual mode and cranking power into it anyway.

Click to expand...

Perfect! I’ll set it up this way. Thank you!

I used that exact diagram and went to check everything an I am not getting power to my PID. Having a hard time trouble shooting. I am getting power to my terminal strips. Where I think I'm going wrong is the wiring to my auber push button switches. How have people been wiring those switches. What should be my next step to trouble shoot? My ssr is not getting power either and I'm not sure where I went wrong or what to Check next

forcabrew said:

I used that exact diagram and went to check everything an I am not getting power to my PID. Having a hard time trouble shooting. I am getting power to my terminal strips. Where I think I'm going wrong is the wiring to my auber push button switches. How have people been wiring those switches. What should be my next step to trouble shoot? My ssr is not getting power either and I'm not sure where I went wrong or what to Check next

Click to expand...

I think I share some of the blame with your issues. I drew the diagram last November and I over simplified the drawing of the push button switches from Auber Instruments.

BTW, your SSR will not control the element power unless the PID is functioning.

I modified the diagram to better illustrate the push button switches in accordance with the switch PDF file on the Auberins site. The drawing has a different name so that both versions will show.

As always - click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17"):






I hope this helps you.

P-J

Thanks PJ. I'll give this a try today

ok so i rewired my switches and I'm still not getting any power to the switches or PID. Im not sure where to look. after looking at it for a while i think one of the fuse holders may be wired incorrectly. would that cause me not to get any power? where should i look next?

Use a volt meter and meter it out. Or unplug the system and use an ohm veter to check the wiring and switches.

Could I have gotten the wrong terminals? They are all 30amp but when I use a volt meter the only place on the terminal that is receiving power is the spot that the wire from the power cord is screwed to and the spot across from it. The entire strip doesnt receive power? Could this be an issue? I got the strips from grainger. Thanks PJ for the quick reply

forcabrew said:

Could I have gotten the wrong terminals? They are all 30amp but when I use a volt meter the only place on the terminal that is receiving power is the spot that the wire from the power cord is screwed to and the spot across from it. The entire strip doesnt receive power? Could this be an issue? I got the strips from grainger. Thanks PJ for the quick reply

Click to expand...

Ok... Now I got it.

Let me do some searching and I'll come right back and edit this post.

Edit: You need to get terminal block jumper strips that match your terminal strip.

Something similar to this: radioshack - Terminal Strip
Or this: grainger - Terminal-Strip-Jumper

This way you connect the adjacent terminals on the block so that power is delivered to its target.

Thanks again PJ I will give this a try tomorrow and report back

Welcome.

Just to keep one thing in mind:



The jumper strip connects the adjacent terminals on one side of the terminal block so that they are all connected to the power input line. As the image shows, their is an insulated barrier between each segment. You could also do this by running a piece of wire from the input line to each segment.

Hope this makes sense.

P-J

Ive been playing with the numbers and I think it would be worth going with 2 pids. Seems like a small addition to the overall project budget. P-j do you have any suggestions on this setup?

I got my fittings order all figured out and should be ordering these shortly. Anyone have experience with the camlock system?

I might built the mechanical system first and then tackle the control panel. This will allow me to brew while I'm assembling.

Stevevliet said:

Ive been playing with the numbers and I think it would be worth going with 2 pids. Seems like a small addition to the overall project budget. P-j do you have any suggestions on this setup?

I got my fittings order all figured out and should be ordering these shortly. Anyone have experience with the camlock system?

I might built the mechanical system first and then tackle the control panel. This will allow me to brew while I'm assembling.

Click to expand...

I have lots of ideas on setups. It all just depends on what you are trying to achieve.

Two PIDs are only needed when you are going to do back to back batches. If that is your intent, it can be done. It's just all about the $'s you are going to throw at it - after all.

P-J said:

Ok... Now I got it.

Let me do some searching and I'll come right back and edit this post.

Edit: You need to get terminal block jumper strips that match your terminal strip.

Something similar to this: radioshack - Terminal Strip
Or this: grainger - Terminal-Strip-Jumper

This way you connect the adjacent terminals on the block so that power is delivered to its target.

Click to expand...

Ok so i jumped the lines so that every thing receives power incoming from the power cable and Then a miracle happened and everything turned on !! I did find out that i crossed the two heating element recepticles (when i flip the switch the the right the left element will recieve power) im not worried about it ill try to switch but im just glad it works. I still have a couple questions even though I am fine where everything is right now. My ssr light didn't turn on is it supposed to? Also before I put everything back and clean all the wires up I want to make sure my rtd probe is working correctly. I went to do that today but I couldn't get a reading. I turned the power to my PID on while the rtd was in a glass of 100 degree water but the PID read something like 1260 on the top line and 50 at the bottom. Not sure what to do or how to do it but if someone knows how I can check it quickly Id appreciate it. Now off to read the manual.

PJ special thanks to you as you helped me through all these steps even takin the time to answer all my dumb questions and talking me through things on the phone. You'll forget more about brewing than I'll ever know. Thanks again this beers for you

Cheers
Ed

Ed,

Your very next step is to program the PID to set it up for the RTD temperature probe. There are other settings that you need to attend to so that you can achieve manual mode. Please read the PID manual (a few times if necessary) so that you understand what needs to be done.

You might want to call Suyi Liu (The owner of Auber Instruments) if you get really stuck on setting up the PID. (OR post the issue here as there are a whole bunch of brewers that have gone through the same process.)

Wishing you great success. Please keep us posted.

P-J

In the middle of reading the manual now gonna finish it up tonight. I also found a thread on here that makes it a little more understandable. I hope to set it up tomorrow so I can test out that probe. I'll report back as soon as check the probe

SSR light didn't come on when i powered it up earlier. Should I be worried?

forcabrew said:

...
SSR light didn't come on when i powered it up earlier. Should I be worried?

Click to expand...

Not at all. The indicator light will not show until the PID sends the appropriate power signal to the SSR. This runs back to the temp probe setup as the PID cannot function without the proper parameters set for the RTD probe. It's a complex problem that starts out with the proper programming of the Auber Instruments PID.

It's kinda like the power bus. Unless it's set up right, nothing works.

(I share your pain and AM in your corner.)

P-J

Also, if you plan on using a rtd probe, I just asked for my pid to come already set for rtd in the comments section on the order page on auber website when I ordered. When I got it I just plugged it in and it was ready to go

JRems said:

Also, if you plan on using a rtd probe, I just asked for my pid to come already set for rtd in the comments section on the order page on auber website when I ordered. When I got it I just plugged it in and it was ready to go

Click to expand...

Wow.! Suyi Liu (the owner of Auber Instruments) does it again.

Thanks. I'd never think of that. Awesome.!

Gotta hand it to you brother, you've been an enormous help. I followed one of your diagrams to build my simple controller and brewed my first batch without propane this past weekend. Thanks for all you do on this site!
Prost!

Ok so I programmed some of the settings in PID just so I could check to see if the rtd was working properly and it worked great. It actually read the temp in the room perfectly when submerged in a cup of 100 + degree water it was off by only 2 degrees which I plan to correct later with another function of PID. This weekend I plan to clean up all the wiring and close the control box. Once I do that I just have a few more lose ends to finish my keggles, dial everything in and I should be good to go.

A thank you to everyone on HBT as I read countless threads regarding ebrewing and there was a lot of valuable information.

But I cannot stress the how helpful PJ has been during my build. The extent of my electrical knowledge prior to this project was just changing some outlets and things around the house. PJ was able to convince me that I would be able to complete this project. PJ thank you very much. cheers!!

JRems said:

Also, if you plan on using a rtd probe, I just asked for my pid to come already set for rtd in the comments section on the order page on auber website when I ordered. When I got it I just plugged it in and it was ready to go

Click to expand...

Talk about valuable info. I will be purchasing two in the near future. I wouldn't have thought about having it done right at the place of purchase. I appreciate the suggestion JRems.

Learning the pid functions was hard enough, I didn't want to have to mess with it just to see if it and the rtd worked. I just made the comment in the order page, I never got confirmation That the setting would be set to rtd, but when it came and I plugged it in the rtd worked right away so I'm guessing my comment worked. Glad to help out anyone

I am looking to do this exact same setup. I have the diagram which is awesome and just wanted to double check and see if any had already put together a parts list.

Thanks

Tom_FL said:

I am looking to do this exact same setup. I have the diagram which is awesome and just wanted to double check and see if any had already put together a parts list.

Thanks

Click to expand...

I use this diagram and put together a parts list, pm me an email address and I'll email you my excel sheet tomorow. If any one else made one you too should send it so Tom can mix and match.

JRems said:

Also, if you plan on using a rtd probe, I just asked for my pid to come already set for rtd in the comments section on the order page on auber website when I ordered. When I got it I just plugged it in and it was ready to go

Click to expand...

Wait wait wait - hold on a minute. I bought my PID and RTD together a long time ago, but never asked for this. I just connected them together and they worked. I have heretofore assumed that the PID from Auber automatically worked with either a K-type or RTD as the manual never mentioned the PID being set for one made it incompatible with the other.

If there were ever a reason why I would need to set it for one or the other - how can I do this? I don't recall seeing anything about it in the manual.