Please explain what I'm missing

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duskb

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Many times I've compared my extract recipes to the beer they were supposedly crafted after and I've noticed how my beers stand out having what I can only describe as a different "mouthfeel" than their commercial counterparts. At first I thought it had something to do with the CO2 content or draw particulars but now I'm beginning to realize it's something else completely.

My stuff when compared to a commercial (or microbrew) has a much softer and thinner feel in my mouth than the thicker more full bodied drink I get in the pre-labeled brown bottles. I don't know why or what it is I'm doing to get that effect.

So, I pose this question to the group. My beer tastes great but it's thin and almost watery. Maybe I'm over watering it when I go to top off, I dunno. I'm topping off to the 5 gallon mark, I believe. What other components can alter the mouthfeel in a brew and how much of it is related the the fact that I'm brewing mini mash instead of all grain?
 
Hard to tell without tasting the beer. I noticed an improvement when switching to all grain, but that's not to say that there aren't improvements to be made to either the brewing process or recipe you're using.
 
Many times I've compared my extract recipes to the beer they were supposedly crafted after and I've noticed how my beers stand out having what I can only describe as a different "mouthfeel" than their commercial counterparts. At first I thought it had something to do with the CO2 content or draw particulars but now I'm beginning to realize it's something else completely.

My stuff when compared to a commercial (or microbrew) has a much softer and thinner feel in my mouth than the thicker more full bodied drink I get in the pre-labeled brown bottles. I don't know why or what it is I'm doing to get that effect.

So, I pose this question to the group. My beer tastes great but it's thin and almost watery. Maybe I'm over watering it when I go to top off, I dunno. I'm topping off to the 5 gallon mark, I believe. What other components can alter the mouthfeel in a brew and how much of it is related the the fact that I'm brewing mini mash instead of all grain?

You could try adding some grains specifically designed for what you describe. Wheat, Oats, Carapils....the list goes on. It doesn't take a lot. I still think you can achieve what you're looking for with extract especially if you are mini-mashing. I don't think that body in a beer is the sole property of all-grain brewing. It's also very important to try to achieve the OG called for in the recipe.
 
It's also very important to try to achieve the OG called for in the recipe.

I must confess I have never measured OG, just FG. I just go with what is posted on the recipe and assume with the ingredients they detail that I'm automatically there. Is this not the case?
 
I must confess I have never measured OG, just FG. I just go with what is posted on the recipe and assume with the ingredients they detail that I'm automatically there. Is this not the case?

With extract, that is usually the case IF your volumes are correct. You mentioned that you top-off. I would definitely start taking gravities. If your gravity is correct out of the BK, and you top-off, you are changing it. Even if you end up with less beer, it will be better beer. I may have mis-understood you, I assumed you were doing full boils.
 
With extract, that is usually the case IF your volumes are correct. You mentioned that you top-off. I would definitely start taking gravities. If your gravity is correct out of the BK, and you top-off, you are changing it. Even if you end up with less beer, it will be better beer. I may have mis-understood you, I assumed you were doing full boils.

I'll try it on the batch tonight. I do full 60 minute boils (to about 3 gal) and I'm pretty sure the recipe's are based on me topping off to 5 gal. Problem is it's hard to know exactly where 5 gal is in the bucket when you're filling up from outside a nearly sealed container.

I'm going to "under" top-off my usual mark tonight just to see if this beer comes out a bit "thicker". I'll report back.
 
The way I do extract batches is I take the gravity once the wort is chilled, then I add top-off water until I get to the target OG. That way you are making the exact beer to set out to make, not the exact quantity of beer.
 
Also, make sure to measure the lines on your bucket yourself. Plenty of the Ale Pails with markings are inaccurate. Find a quart or gallon container and mark as you add water.
 
The way I do extract batches is I take the gravity once the wort is chilled, then I add top-off water until I get to the target OG. That way you are making the exact beer to set out to make, not the exact quantity of beer.

Ok, I've got to ask because I'm cursed. How is it that you are able to do the following without introducing infection:

1. Keep the hydrometer under control while its in the fermenter (with the lid off I'm assuming).
2. Get the hydrometer out without getting anything in the fermenter contaminated.
3. Avoid ruining your beer by having the hydrometer break "en utero".

This is mainly whay I have never bothered taking a reading. Fear of introducing infection or something else.
 
Ok, I've got to ask because I'm cursed. How is it that you are able to do the following without introducing infection:

1. Keep the hydrometer under control while its in the fermenter (with the lid off I'm assuming).
2. Get the hydrometer out without getting anything in the fermenter contaminated.
3. Avoid ruining your beer by having the hydrometer break "en utero".

This is mainly whay I have never bothered taking a reading. Fear of introducing infection or something else.

Good questions!

When I sanatize for the brew day, I keep some sanatizer solution laying around in a bowl, mason jar, etc.

So when it comes time to top off, this is my procedure:

I sanatize a measuing cup
Dunk it into the wort to get just enough for the hydro reading
Pour wort from measuring cup into hydrometer test tube.
Drop hydrometer in to take reading
Dump wort from hydro sample in sink
Add a half or full gollon of water based on the hydro reading
Stir the living hell out of it because if the water/wort doesn't mix, it throws your readings off
Repeat process

That way your hydrometer never touches the wort so you don't have to worry about introducing infect by dropping the hydrometer in the wort, or by getting it out. The only thing that touches your wort is the measuring cup, which you sanatize before each use
 
Ok, I've got to ask because I'm cursed. How is it that you are able to do the following without introducing infection:

1. Keep the hydrometer under control while its in the fermenter (with the lid off I'm assuming).
2. Get the hydrometer out without getting anything in the fermenter contaminated.
3. Avoid ruining your beer by having the hydrometer break "en utero".

This is mainly whay I have never bothered taking a reading. Fear of introducing infection or something else.

I'm not sure what you're asking. I don't know anybody who drops the hydrometer in the carboy. You sanitize a wine thief or a turkey baster, and then fill the hydrometer test jar. It takes about 5 seconds or less. Close the fermenter, and take the reading of the beer in the test jar. If the reading is too high, you add water. I use some software, but simple math can work, too. Water is 1.000.
 
1. Don't put it in your beer
2. use the hydrometer tube
3. Don't let glass anywhere near your delicious goodness.

You are trying to replicate a beer under completely different circumstances. There is not one component or process that is the same. Plus, they aren't really going to give you the recipe 100%.
 
Good questions!

When I sanatize for the brew day, I keep some sanatizer solution laying around in a bowl, mason jar, etc.

So when it comes time to top off, this is my procedure:

I sanatize a measuing cup
Dunk it into the wort to get just enough for the hydro reading
Pour wort from measuring cup into hydrometer test tube.
Drop hydrometer in to take reading
Dump wort from hydro sample in sink
Add a half or full gollon of water based on the hydro reading
Stir the living hell out of it because if the water/wort doesn't mix, it throws your readings off
Repeat process

That way your hydrometer never touches the wort so you don't have to worry about introducing infect by dropping the hydrometer in the wort, or by getting it out. The only thing that touches your wort is the measuring cup, which you sanatize before each use

Thanks for clarifying. Aside from sacrificing a few ounces of beer this seems like a really painless way of going. I'm glad I asked.

So for me the toughest part of dealing with the fermenter is getting that danged lid off. Am I to assume you do not seal it all the way while you're taking measurements.

Also, say the reading comes up at 1.035 and the FG solution is supposed to reach 1.042. How do you know how much H20 to add to hit the mark?
 
Thanks for clarifying. Aside from sacrificing a few ounces of beer this seems like a really painless way of going. I'm glad I asked.

So for me the toughest part of dealing with the fermenter is getting that danged lid off. Am I to assume you do not seal it all the way while you're taking measurements.

Also, say the reading comes up at 1.035 and the FG solution is supposed to reach 1.042. How do you know how much H20 to add to hit the mark?

Well, if you get 1.035, and you're supposed to get 1.042 for an OG, then you won't add any water at all. You've already got too much! You need more malt extract.

Marking your fermenter is really crucial. Guessing at volumes is tricky, and I certainly wouldn't be able to do it.

If you fill the fermenter to 5 gallons, and stir like a crazy person, and take an OG, it should be right in the ballpark of what the recipe projects if it's an extract batch. If it's too high or too low, stir again.

If it's an AG batch, it's possible that you got better efficiency than the recipe designer. If that's the case, you can add water to get the correct OG. It's easiest with brewing software (the dilution tool will tell you exactly!) but it's possible with simple math. Water has a SG of 1.000. So, if you've got 5 gallons at 1.050 but want to be at 1.045, you would just add half a gallon of water.
 
Well, if you get 1.035, and you're supposed to get 1.042 for an OG, then you won't add any water at all. You've already got too much! You need more malt extract.

Marking your fermenter is really crucial. Guessing at volumes is tricky, and I certainly wouldn't be able to do it.

If you fill the fermenter to 5 gallons, and stir like a crazy person, and take an OG, it should be right in the ballpark of what the recipe projects if it's an extract batch. If it's too high or too low, stir again.
Exactly!

Adding water will DROP your gravity. If you are getting a gravity reading that is too low, stir the hell out of it. Many times the much heavier wort sinks to the bottom leaving you with only mildly mixed wort/top-off-water causing the reading to bee lower than it really is.

When adding top off water, i never seal the lid, I just place it on top so nothing can fall in. The lid sealing is not crucial (even for the duration of fermentation) because once it begins fermenting, the heavy C02 produced will act like a blanket over the wort by filling up the open spaces preventing outside air from getting in.
 
Well, if you get 1.035, and you're supposed to get 1.042 for an OG, then you won't add any water at all. You've already got too much! You need more malt extract.

Marking your fermenter is really crucial. Guessing at volumes is tricky, and I certainly wouldn't be able to do it.

If you fill the fermenter to 5 gallons, and stir like a crazy person, and take an OG, it should be right in the ballpark of what the recipe projects if it's an extract batch. If it's too high or too low, stir again.

If it's an AG batch, it's possible that you got better efficiency than the recipe designer. If that's the case, you can add water to get the correct OG. It's easiest with brewing software (the dilution tool will tell you exactly!) but it's possible with simple math. Water has a SG of 1.000. So, if you've got 5 gallons at 1.050 but want to be at 1.045, you would just add half a gallon of water.

I realized that after I posted it, the other way around is what I meant.

I'm doing extract/grain only at this point because I'm too busy to really adopt AG practices.

For me the issue has always been "what's 5 gallons". I thought the mark in the bucket was 5 gallons but I've learned differently that doesn't mean much. I'll try to measure the 5 gallon mark tonight. I'll probably be mortified to see where it is and what I've been doing to my brews over the last 2 years.
Dusk
 
I realized that after I posted it, the other way around is what I meant.

I'm doing extract/grain only at this point because I'm too busy to really adopt AG practices.

For me the issue has always been "what's 5 gallons". I thought the mark in the bucket was 5 gallons but I've learned differently that doesn't mean much. I'll try to measure the 5 gallon mark tonight. I'll probably be mortified to see where it is and what I've been doing to my brews over the last 2 years.
Dusk

Well, you haven't being doing much to your brews, aside from perhaps watering them down a bit. If your OGs match the recipe, then you're not even doing that!

A couple of things that can help once you get your volumes figured out- one is simply recipe formulation. Sometimes a little "tweak" is all that's needed for a recipe to go from "meh" to fantastic. More mouthfeel? Some flaked barley or flaked wheat can give you that. More sweetness? A bit of lactose can help, or more caramel malt in the recipe. You get the idea- you're probably really close to a fantastic brew.
 
Well, you haven't being doing much to your brews, aside from perhaps watering them down a bit. If your OGs match the recipe, then you're not even doing that!

A couple of things that can help once you get your volumes figured out- one is simply recipe formulation. Sometimes a little "tweak" is all that's needed for a recipe to go from "meh" to fantastic. More mouthfeel? Some flaked barley or flaked wheat can give you that. More sweetness? A bit of lactose can help, or more caramel malt in the recipe. You get the idea- you're probably really close to a fantastic brew.

Well, I think I figured it out. I don't have an exact measurement in terms of volume but I poured a 1 gallon bottle of distilled H20 into a household container maked the line and poured 5 of those into my brew bucket. I've been (even on the low batches) at least 2" above the actual 5 gallon mark. Some I've gone as high as 5-6". Can't say what that translates to in terms of gallons but I could have been pumping at least 6-6.5 gallons in some batches. (I should have known something was up when I'd fill my keg up the bottom of the CO2 intake stem and STILL have enough left over for five 12 ounce bottles...)

That probably explains alot of it. Tonight I'm going to stick to the mark and see how it turns out.
 
I should mention that last night after determining where the REAL 5 gallon mark in my fermenter was I took a gravity reading and was right on the mark at 1.048.

When I bought the buckets the store said "fill it up to the mark" so that's what I've been doing. That mark's probably a 1/2 gallon over the actual mark so I've been diluting my beer for sometime and not realizing it.

You learn something new every day...

...and never trust anyone to give you the truth unless you've figured it out for yourself first.
 
I should mention that last night after determining where the REAL 5 gallon mark in my fermenter was I took a gravity reading and was right on the mark at 1.048.

When I bought the buckets the store said "fill it up to the mark" so that's what I've been doing. That mark's probably a 1/2 gallon over the actual mark so I've been diluting my beer for sometime and not realizing it.

You learn something new every day...

...and never trust anyone to give you the truth unless you've figured it out for yourself first.

Glad you got it figured out....things are looking up. This is a great example of measuring your volumes rather than relying on, as in this case, erroneous markings on containers.
 
Didn't backread much but I believe if you switched to a full boil it would improve your results dramatically.

I noticed a more immediate difference in the switch from partial to full boil vs. the next move from extract to all grain (of course now that I have my all grain dialed in I'm getting much much better results even still).
 
Didn't backread much but I believe if you switched to a full boil it would improve your results dramatically.

I noticed a more immediate difference in the switch from partial to full boil vs. the next move from extract to all grain (of course now that I have my all grain dialed in I'm getting much much better results even still).

Ok, so I must be missing something. I thought a 60 min boil WAS a full boil. Is it not?
 
I'm not familiar with this term. I'll have to look it up.

It means to boild every bit of liquid that goes into your fermentor. So for a 5 gallon batch you would have about a 6 gallon boil (more or less depending on your own boil off rate).

This is opposed to boiling 2 or 3 gallons and adding top off water
 
It means to boild every bit of liquid that goes into your fermentor. So for a 5 gallon batch you would have about a 6 gallon boil (more or less depending on your own boil off rate).

This is opposed to boiling 2 or 3 gallons and adding top off water

I got it. That's a bit beyond where I'm at now I'd imagine. Not necessarily know how wise but I'd need a bigger kettle, more heat, more ways to cool, and more gear which I just don't have the space for.

It sounds alot like the process of moving to AG. Not that I'm not interested in going there at one point in my life but there's no way I'd be able to pull it off now. I'm way too busy. I'm lucky to get in two extract batches a month and given how much my friends and I like to drink it I'd be dry in 3 weeks if I did anything to slow the pipeline down.

This has been educational though, food for thought at least.

Thanks!
 
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