Northern Brewer Grain is not looking so good

[Edit]: Whatever...

Again, who bashed them? It has been established they are a fine company with excellent customer service. I find it amusing how you know my intent of the post and yet you are the one trying to change this from a discussion on grain crush to being personal. I already said in a previous post I should have kept it generic and not mentioned the company name. Like it or not, this is an on going problem and is why so many of the experienced brewers on this site recommend getting your own mill.

zachattack said:

In general I think homebrewers in general are a rather happy/positive bunch. Negativity is a buzz kill! We're all in this hobby together, let's keep it positive

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And I agree with this, this thread is not helping anyone at this point. Lets all move on.

Haha and I realize I was redundantly redundant with that sentence.

The issue some people find with this thread stems from the title.

Probably 99% of the grain that NB or any other homebrew supplier sells/crushes is barley. NB most likely crushes their barley just fine.

They screwed up on the other ~1%, but the title of the thread is just a generalization about how NB's "grain" isn't right. If the title was more specific to rye and/or wheat, no one would take issue.

Having said that, I don't see any evidence of "bashing" by either the OP or any of the repliers in this thread. It's just HomeBrewTalk.

TarheelBrew13 said:

My take-away from this thread is that Northern Brewer makes a lot of mistakes but that they do a great job of fixing them and are really polite to their customers.

I think it's great that they have such loyal customers that are so willing to defend them but I don't think I would order from them after this. Who wants to order there supplies, wait to receive them only to find they are somehow messed up and them wait on the fix? Not me. I think I'll just go to my LHBStore. They are really cool and if they make a mistake it can be fixed the se day. Also, I like to buy local.

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This is totally ridiculous! NB is one of the largest online suppliers, they have several LHB stores. If they made A LOT they would not have grown to be the huge success that they are. I have made most of my orders from them since last July. I have had a problem with them just once. It was with hardware. It was taken care of with one email.

To the OP you need to proof read your post with a thought as to how it will sound to someone else. I get that you meant to make a warning that there
may be a problem with NB's crush.

It came off as a RANT that NB has lousy grain crush. If you added that you didn't think that it was a common occurrence and that you would be contacting them in the post you would not have gotten the same type of response.

NB rocks! :rockin: And no I have no stock in NB.

Man I can't believe people are getting so hostile that you posted when you received practically uncrushed grain. You were honest about it and didn't bash them at all.

Extreme fanboyism.

Glad to hear NB is sending you new grain - hopefully they don't make this same mistake again in the future. Maybe they just had a rookie not know about huskless milling. Honest mistake, no big deal.

Most likely the passion comes from the multiple positive experineces others have had with this supplier. I have never bought from NB, as I am fortunate enough to have a brick and mortar LHBS nearby. Based on the OVERALL feedback in this thread, I would have no problem buying from NB if the need arose. NB reputation is intact, IMHO.

As a new AG brewer who doesn't own his own mill (yet), I will say that I also appreciated this thread for a few reasons.

1) I appreciated the pictures of what a less than stellar crush looks like. The more I can learn on someone else's dime/time, the better.
2) I also learned that crush can vary between husk-less malts and regular base malts and I may need to (or should) make special requests for gap spacing or double milling for certain types of grains. And for that reason, I appreciate the shared knowledge/experience with a particular supplier.....I now know to take extra precaution when ordering grain from NB to avoid potential brewing delays. Again, learning from someone else's experience.
3) And finally, I appreciated hearing that if I ever have an issue with NB, there's a good chance that they'll rectify the situation. So I just won't plan on ordering grain from them on a Monday for a Saturday brew-day until I've placed enough orders to be comfortable that I won't have to test their customer service.

Sure, perhaps the OP could've waited until he completed his due diligence and given them a chance to remedy the situation before "yelling fire in a crowded theater". But, by that same logic, we probably shouldn't be posting praises about any vendors until we've given them enough opportunities to screw something up.

Personally, I'd like to know if a supplier has a reputation for having to fix mistakes and having to re-ship orders/ingredients so I can take that into account when making my purchases. So why not share any and all experiences, good or bad? I dunno, I guess I'd just like to think that myself, and most others, are smart (and diligent) enough to take a single post for what it's worth and do a search or read up on suppliers before getting out the credit card.

iijakii said:

Man I can't believe people are getting so hostile that you posted when you received practically uncrushed grain. You were honest about it and didn't bash them at all.

Extreme fanboyism.

Glad to hear NB is sending you new grain - hopefully they don't make this same mistake again in the future. Maybe they just had a rookie not know about huskless milling. Honest mistake, no big deal.

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It isn't fanboyism, it's the fact that people feel it is appropriate to rush commentary online without giving the merchant a chance to make things right.

Had the OP not admitted he hadn't waited to hear back from NB before posting, this would be a different story. Things happen with pretty much any online vendor. I've had some troublesome orders in the past and don't make a big deal out of it until they company fails to rectify the problem...

Personally I don't care what the problem is, failure to give a chance to fix it before putting something out on the interwebs forever is pretty pathetic.

Well he actually posted that NB is making it right and sending him new grain, which would have been good press and a happy ending for all. But that post is lost and hidden in a 30 post long nerdrage outburst. It very much is fanboyism.

iijakii said:

Well he actually posted that NB is making it right and sending him new grain, which would have been good press and a happy ending for all. But that post is lost and hidden in a 30 post long nerdrage outburst. It very much is fanboyism.

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I agree. After reading this post I had to go back and find where the OP said they made it right. Thanks.

Good work OP and NB for working out your issue.

I for one am glad he posted this. I know I will be a more observant when receiving grains from them.

It look at it as more of a public serveice bullitin. No need to get all uptight about it.

I saw they they made the situation right, the issue that I have is he should have waited to make a post until after he gave them a chance to fix them problem.

A post that says "NB sucks at crushing grain" with no other point is perceived differently than "NB sent me poorly crushed grain, they sent me new grain, watch out for this if you have efficiency problems."

The original posts in threads like these are never edited to reflect the fact that the problem was resolved and therefore it appears negative to those that just skim through it... that's not fair to the vendor and it's why I wish people would refrain from posting until they give a chance for the situation to be solved.

So the one thing to consider for those who are mad he didn't give them a chance to make things right before posting... sometimes, depending on schedule and timing, there isn't a reasonable way to "make things right" if you screw it up the first time.

I'm not arguing one way or the other about whether it was "fair" or "right" or any of that. Just keep in mind that just because in your particular situation, a problem being fixed equals no harm no foul, doesn't mean it has to be that way for everyone else in every situation.

The OP came back and updated on what happened. Gave a full accounting of what happened. I, personally, do not see a big problem.

IffyG said:

that's not fair to the vendor and it's why I wish people would refrain from posting until they give a chance for the situation to be solved.

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Is just posting the picture of what he received unfair? Or was that ok, but the commentary unfair?

IMO, anything directly naming the vendor in question should be withheld until contact is made. It doesn't matter to me whether or not it is a supporting vendor for a forum, a random seller on the internet, a local business, big box store, failing to speak with the vendor before chiding them online (which will float around for eternity) is poor form.

Someone please give a clear reason why a post like this shouldn't go up. I haven't seen the argument. The fact that some of you wouldn't have posted it isn't a reason the OP SHOULDN'T have. I can see objecting to the post if it was dishonest or malicious. It wasn't. So why should the OP not have posted it?

IffyG said:

IMO, anything directly naming the vendor in question should be withheld until contact is made. It doesn't matter to me whether or not it is a supporting vendor for a forum, a random seller on the internet, a local business, big box store, failing to speak with the vendor before chiding them online (which will float around for eternity) is poor form.

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Then I guess my other question for clarification: Is it OK for him to post those pictures after contacting NB, if he also says "and they've agreed to ship me new grain, but this is what I got the first time around"? Or is that also poor form?

For me:

Getting it right the first time > Getting it wrong but fixing it >>> Getting it wrong and not fixing it.

I believe that properly handling your mistake gets you close to just having gotten it right, but I can't get to the point where properly handling a mistake makes it as if the mistake didn't happen. The OPs post documented that the mistake happened, which it did.

I forget; why again is the original poster being crucified for Northern Brewers quality control issue?

How 'bout we get a new SOP for the guy on the mill and then advertise how good we are at making sure every order is right before we ship it -guaranteed.

Win-win

discnjh said:

Then I guess my other question for clarification: Is it OK for him to post those pictures after contacting NB, if he also says "and they've agreed to ship me new grain, but this is what I got the first time around"? Or is that also poor form?

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That is absolutely within what I would consider to be proper conduct. The tone of a statement like that is far different than using crushed in quotations and then complaining about hypothetical poor efficiency.

I suppose I must fall in the minority that feels it isn't fair to a business to complain about them in a public forum without at least speaking to them first...

Pilgarlic said:

Someone please give a clear reason why a post like this shouldn't go up. I haven't seen the argument. The fact that some of you wouldn't have posted it isn't a reason the OP SHOULDN'T have. I can see objecting to the post if it was dishonest or malicious. It wasn't. So why should the OP not have posted it?

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Well, to those of us that think it's wrong to publicize somebody's mistake before giving them a chance to correct it privately, the reason is very clear. Even with no dishonesty or malicious intention, it's still unfair and potentially damaging to NB. This is how I feel, and this is also how a lot of other people feel. The OP said that he shouldn't have specifically mentioned NB, and I think we all agree that if the tone of the title and original post were different there would be a much more positive response.

So I think there has been a good bit of agreement, let's acknowledge this and end the argument right here.

We all have different values and morals, but as long as we can all agree to respect beer I think we're good

IffyG said:

That is absolutely within what I would consider to be proper conduct. The tone of a statement like that is far different than using crushed in quotations and then complaining about hypothetical poor efficiency.

I suppose I must fall in the minority that feels it isn't fair to a business to complain about them in a public forum without at least speaking to them first...

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I never understood the thought process behind posting snarky comments bashing a vendor/company before trying to work out the problem on their own.. I mean, yeah it sucks that he got bad efficiency from a bad crush, but was it necessary to shame the vendor into fixing the problem?

Now, if the company had been ignoring his emails/phone calls it would be a different story, but to not even give them a chance to make it right and go straight to bitching? Poor form.

IffyG said:

I suppose I must fall in the minority that feels it isn't fair to a business to complain about them in a public forum without at least speaking to them first...

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Again, I don't understand what's unfair about reporting a fact, which is what those pictures were. The appropriateness of his commentary aside, I fail to see what is wrong with sharing pictures of what he received. He should have received properly milled grain. He did not. Nothing NB can do from that point forward changes that fact.

Ah well, its been fun, but I think I've spent enough time on this thread, and feel I have thoroughly conveyed my opinion on the matter. Ahhh, the joys of the moral dilemmas brought up by homebrewing.

For the record, I would have called them rather than post the pictures.

Franco said:

I never understood the thought process behind posting snarky comments bashing a vendor/company before trying to work out the problem on their own.. I mean, yeah it sucks that he got bad efficiency from a bad crush, but was it necessary to shame the vendor into fixing the problem?

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The thing is he never used the grain, so he never experienced poor efficiency. He merely posted the experience of other users that blamed the crush on their poor efficiency. Unfortunately people will invariably blame someone else for their problems and there are many more factors in efficiency than the crush.

discnjh said:

For the record, I would have called them rather than post the pictures.

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At least we agree on that part of the issue.

The choice of adding a little to the post would have stopped all the bickering in the first place.

The title: Northern Brewer Grain is not looking so good.
If this said: Last order of Northern Brewer grain crush not looking good - check yours.
Followed by the pictures and a note saying that he read that others were having efficiency problems and to check their orders. Then also a note that he was contacting NB to try to resolve the problem.

The problem was not the "warning". It was how it was stated. When I read it, it sounded like a rant against NB.

In the subsequent posts there was a lot of useful information added .

This could have started as a useful discussion with a better choice of words and some more information.

For the record, we prefer that you attempt to rectify the situation privately before posting publicly. I'm glad it worked out in the end.

IIRC, Northern Brewer will actually adjust their mill for you (or at least "double crush") if you provide instructions or a brief description of your grain crush preference with your order. I'm not suggesting that you should HAVE to provide that information with an order, but for those who are concerned, it's probably worth typing a few phrases into the remarks.

I am not going to convince everyone that it was not meant to be malicious. I had been researching why efficiencies were low and found a thread that mentioned more than once a problem with grain crush from NB. I almost just added to that thread but didn't. I posted in the all grain brewing section, if I was trying to bash the vendor I would have posted it in the vendor section. As far as me not brewing with these first to see if it made for poor efficiency, well of course not, there is post after post of the importance of crush.

That all said, I seriously like NB and will continue to buy from them. I would have before they made it right. I feel obligated to post this e-mail to assure others of their undeniable great customer service.


Jim,

My apologies for the poor crush on that grain. We do regularly calibrate our mills, as we are very concerned with getting a proper crush. Our Fulfillment manager has posted examples of good crushes vs. poor crushes, but I think someone in the grain room must have had trouble with the wheat and rye malts (they require a different gap setting). I will certainly have some replacement grain sent out today for you, and I added a note to make sure it is well-crushed. We do not receive many complaints regarding the crush on our grain, though there is certainly the occasional case where it is an issue. The most common reports we hear are from customers expecting the grain to be completely pulverized because another shop processes their grain that way. We target the ideal crush described by Gregory Noonan, in which each handful of grain has a couple whole husks, and most of the husks are simply cracked open. Obviously that was not the case for you, and I am sorry about that. We appreciate you letting us know, and will make sure to pass the feedback along. Please let us know if you have any other questions or concerns.

Cheers,

Dan
Northern Brewer, LLC

Original Message

Jim, your tone throughout was cordial enough. I don't see any malice. Thanks for staying engaged rather than simply complaining.

I appreciate and even kind of expect that you guys would post stuff like this that you see. If someone indicates they have an issue with whatever it may be, I learn from that.'it's one of the things that makes my beer better.
I like NB as much as the next guy but does anyone really think this was malicious or that there needed to be some policing on the part of the poster ? The dude is just telling us about somthing that ACTUALLY happened. Shame on NB for letting it happen and good for me to know to watch for poor crush. I think your a fool if you let this keep you from ordering stuff from NB, but you would be just as big a fool if you didn't learn to double check your grains after this.

Geeez, a guy posts a pic of poorly crushed grain and people jump on him for "Not giving NB a chance" to right the order. Of course NB will fix it, they are awesome, but no one takes into account he now has to wait for replacement grain and it might have messed up his brew schedule, who knows when he is able to brew. Some of you are way too protective, he didn't bash the company or anything. Matter of fact, I got my mill cause of poor NB wheat crush - 56% efficiency bad! Been fine since. I emailed NB about it and they apologized and admitted sometimes the mill isn't adjusted for wheat, but I got no new grain for it.

I don't see anything wrong with the OP's post whether or not he contacted NB.


Rev.

Though this no longer seems to be the topic of this thread, my last three all grains from NB all had 55-60 % efficiency.

Just thought id throw that out there

This is not an attack

I love shopping at NB, it'd the best lhbs near me. But I just set up my corona so that shouldn't be an issue anymore, or at least the fault will be on my mill

dawgmatic said:

Though this no longer seems to be the topic of this thread, my last three all grains from NB all had 55-60 % efficiency.

Just thought id throw that out there

This is not an attack

I love shopping at NB, it'd the best lhbs near me. But I just set up my corona so that shouldn't be an issue anymore, or at least the fault will be on my mill

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This is an actual issue. But I would also ask if you have trouble shot the issue as brewhouse efficiency can be impacted by many factors including grain crush.....

How did the grains look?

If you want it done right, do it yourself!

two_one_seven said:

This is an actual issue. But I would also ask if you have trouble shot the issue as brewhouse efficiency can be impacted by many factors including grain crush.....

How did the grains look?

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They looked more crushed than the OPs pics, but not by much. I've worked through the other potential causes, but haven't been in ahurry to get a mill cause grain is cheap

I've received a bad crush from NB about this time last year. Even emailed them as asked if it was crushed. They said it was and that as they say is that. Was disappointed by the experience but that hasn't stopped me from ordering from them again.

Needless to say, I bought a monster mill (from NB even) so i wouldn't have those issues any more. =)

IffyG said:

It isn't fanboyism, it's the fact that people feel it is appropriate to rush commentary online without giving the merchant a chance to make things right.

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The OP gave them a chance to make it right when he placed his initial order. If it came to him messed up then the company made a mistake. We all make mistakes but that's why companies have quality control. I don't know about you but when I do a job, my employers expect me to do it right the first time. If I make a mistake, it better be right before I hand my product over to the customer. In fact, most of my jobs are expected to be beyond what I promised to deliver.

I think the OP was correct to post his thread exactly as he did. NB, by their own admission, made a mistake. Any flack they receive for it was earned in making that mistake. They can only hope to mitigate that flack by a quick and professional correction. Is that harsh? Maybe, but that's business. There's an easy way to make sure these type of posts don't occur and that's to not send out mistakes.

I don't expect perfection from commercial companies like NB or any other homebrew supplier. I know things can happen, so if my crush looks wrong I get out my rolling pin! I plan on getting a Corona mill soon..

So I bought a crushed AG from NB and this is how it arrived. Bag was ripped. Pretty disappointing but I lived with it.

periwinkle1239 said:

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So I bought a crushed AG from NB and this is how it arrived. Bag was ripped. Pretty disappointing but I lived with it.

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I had this happen with an order from Midwest and they gladly replaced it. They even shipped it over night so I could still brew on the weekend. My hats off to them for superb service in that case. I think most places will provide similar service if you bring it to their attention..