Stepping up Jolly Pumpkin and Crooked Stave dregs

I was recently able to sample a few great funky beers - jolly pumpkin baudelaire io saison, crooked stave surette saison, and crooked stave st. bretta witbier. I ended up harvesting the various dregs and decided to try and grow them up. I made around a gallon of 1.020 starter wort , added the dregs to various jars, and have been swirling them. The JP (brewed with rose hips, rose petals, hibiscus and I'm thinking their typical belgian yeast in the primary and brett in secondary) and St. Bretta (100% brett fermentation [guessing either brett mixture or "house" brett]) starters took off in about 48 hours. The Surette (brett and lacto) has yet to show any visible signs of fermentation after about 4 days.

Has anybody tried to build up Surette dregs before and, if so, what kind of lag time did you have before things started? I'm wondering if the lacto is causing the slow start or if I just didn't get enough dregs to build up.

I have no idea if this is similar, but with Wyeast's lambic blend (which is brett, lacto and some other stuff), "Propagation of this culture is not recommended and will result in a change of the proportions of the individual components." You might find it's hit and miss. 2 out of 3 ain't bad though Good luck!

I took a whiff of the starter and I'm getting a lemon citrus aroma with hints of Brett funk. That makes me think something's happening even if I don't see visible signs of fermentation. I'm thinking just give it some time to see what happens. Worst case, I decant and pour the dregs into my sour beer dreg mix.

Most, if not all JPs beers go into their inoculated barrels, so you probably have a mix of Sacc, Brett, Lacto, and Pedio in there. The Sacc may or may not be viable.

You probably will not get any Lacto sourness out of the Surette dregs. The Lacto slows down in the presence of alcohol. The Brett will probably start first, and hinder the growth of the Lacto.

I've plated out La Roja on plates meant for the isolation of yeast am bacteria, as while I got some really good strains of bacteria, the yeast plates were loaded with saccharomyces. Just an FYI if you're using dregs. Might be a ton of saccharomyces with a little brettanomyces, lactobacillus and pediococcus.

Biobrewer said:

I've plated out La Roja on plates meant for the isolation of yeast am bacteria, as while I got some really good strains of bacteria, the yeast plates were loaded with saccharomyces. Just an FYI if you're using dregs. Might be a ton of saccharomyces with a little brettanomyces, lactobacillus and pediococcus.

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Do you have the ability to distinguish pedio from lacto? I'd always assumed JP beers had no pedio, as I've read that Bam only spends two weeks in the barrel. I did recently see someone post that they'd opened an Oro de Calabaza and it was a little buttery. Of course pedio makes tons of diacetyl, but isn't neccessarily the culprit.

TNGabe said:

Do you have the ability to distinguish pedio from lacto? I'd always assumed JP beers had no pedio, as I've read that Bam only spends two weeks in the barrel. I did recently see someone post that they'd opened an Oro de Calabaza and it was a little buttery. Of course pedio makes tons of diacetyl, but isn't neccessarily the culprit.

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A microscope is pretty telling. Pediococcus are cocci that commonly occur in pairs of 2 or 4 (tetrads), while lactobacillus is rod shaped.

Looking back at my strains and the microscopy I did, I only got a pediococcus strain from La Roja. No lactobacillus.

Biobrewer said:

A microscope is pretty telling. Pediococcus are cocci that commonly occur in pairs of 2 or 4 (tetrads), while lactobacillus is rod shaped.

Looking back at my strains and the microscopy I did, I only got a pediococcus strain from La Roja. No lactobacillus.

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Cool, thanks. My love of wild beers is wearing away at my disinterest in biology and I'm hoping to get into some bug farming soon.

I tried to propagate some dregs from a bottle of Orval and am having similar results. Started with about 100mL of wort into the bottle, let that go for a day, then transferred to 500mL wort in a larger container.

Its been on a stir plate for a couple of days and am also yet to see any sort of activity at all...however when I turn the stir plate off I do get a nice amount of particulates settling out on the bottom. Hoping this is yeast.

I am going to let it keep going for a few days. But do you guys normally see visible fermentation with Brett? Did I just not save enough of the dregs?

mattoak said:

I tried to propagate some dregs from a bottle of Orval and am having similar results. Started with about 100mL of wort into the bottle, let that go for a day, then transferred to 500mL wort in a larger container.

Its been on a stir plate for a couple of days and am also yet to see any sort of activity at all...however when I turn the stir plate off I do get a nice amount of particulates settling out on the bottom. Hoping this is yeast.

I am going to let it keep going for a few days. But do you guys normally see visible fermentation with Brett? Did I just not save enough of the dregs?

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You stepped it up too fast. Also, what was grav on the wort? You want 1.015ish for the first step.

TNGabe said:

You stepped it up too fast. Also, what was grav on the wort? You want 1.015ish for the first step.

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Didn't realize it needed a long time at low volume I thought a day would be good. Is this for all dregs or Brett in particular since its a slower working yeast?

Also, probably went too high on the OG of the wort. Went with a normal starter OG so around 1.04ish? I did 10g DME per 100mL, didn't bother taking gravity.

I am seeing a good deal of chunks floating around in there now though, so I'm pretty sure the yeast are doing something. It also doesn't smell like anything, so I guess that could be good or bad. Did I stress them too much or should I be good as long as they multiply? Is it possible to take a new, small sample and propagate that up the right way or should I not worry?

mattoak said:

Didn't realize it needed a long time at low volume I thought a day would be good. Is this for all dregs or Brett in particular since its a slower working yeast?

Also, probably went too high on the OG of the wort. Went with a normal starter OG so around 1.04ish? I did 10g DME per 100mL, didn't bother taking gravity.

I am seeing a good deal of chunks floating around in there now though, so I'm pretty sure the yeast are doing something. It also doesn't smell like anything, so I guess that could be good or bad. Did I stress them too much or should I be good as long as they multiply? Is it possible to take a new, small sample and propagate that up the right way or should I not worry?

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Correct, brett needs a week to ten days under ideal conditions. Correct again, 10gDME / per 100mL should be about 1.040.

If you're seeing some activity, that might be a good sign. It could be from contamination though. I'd let it ride and see what you get. If it's not what you want, you'll just have to drink more Orval.

Thanks. So about a week later and I definitely had something going on. There is a nice layer of sediment settled to the bottom, and now a sludge layer of something around the inside of the glass at surface level with some white spots of fungus or bacteria looking infection floating around on the surface. I still have foil over it and haven't put an airlock on it yet. It also doesn't smell sour or bad at all, just kind of smells like nothing with a bit of mustiness, but not funky or off. Too scared to taste it lol. I don't know what I should do with it now...?

I'm curious about this. I've often wondered what the real value in harvesting dregs from your favorite beers is. If the flavors you enjoy are products of lacto, pedio, brett, etc and you harvest the dregs, in a 1.040 starter, wouldn't the balance of those bugs in concert be thrown off because only the sacc takes off and everything else chokes, leading to imbalance?

Biobrewer said:

A microscope is pretty telling. Pediococcus are cocci that commonly occur in pairs of 2 or 4 (tetrads), while lactobacillus is rod shaped.

Hi Biobrewer
Looking back at my strains and the microscopy I did, I only got a pediococcus strain from La Roja. No lactobacillus.

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Just reading everything I can find about JP dregs and growing a house culture from these.
I love JP beers. I totally understand I will not get the same distribution of bugs if I grow a starter from the dregs but will I get something similar and very good? Is it better than using commercial strains of bugs? I have been experimenting a lot with commercial strains but have never grown a starter from dregs.
I am surprised to hear that JP only ages his beer for 3 months max before bottling and that he can get that level of sourness. Do you think there is some pediococcus in the blend?
We are starting a microbrewery and I am trying to come up with a house strain. Any advice? thanks