Efficiency Problems

I am an all grain brewer and have brewed about 10 all grain batches. For about the last 5 batches I have used distilled water and added salts to get my desired water profile. I batch sparge but have recently switched to no-sparge brewing because of off flavors (A harsh aftertaste that only seems to happen when I batch sparge). When I no-sparge brew I get no off flavors of any kind, but my efficiency sucks. Actually my efficiency sucks if I batch sparge or no-sparge. I cannot figure out why my efficiency is so horrible.

I recently switched from a steel braid to a copper manifold, but that did not seem to make it better, according to the batch I brewed today. I brewed Edworts hefe and I increased the wheat malt by 1 lbs and the pilsner by about a half a lbs to compensate for the no-sparge and bad efficiency and I still had to add some DME to get it to 1.050, I would have been about 1.45 without it. I did a 90 minute boil and started off with a little over 6.5 gallons and ended up with only about 4 to 4.5 gallons.

I bought a new thermometer and calibrated it so I believe my temps are ok. I do not weight out the brewing slats, I use teaspoons to measure out the amount I need. I really cannot figure out what I am doing wrong. Can anyone please give me some pointers or ideas as to how to improve my efficiency. Should I fly sparge, or go back to batch sparging? As a side question, does anyone else notice a harsh off flavor, or aftertaste when they batch sparge? I have gotten it everytime, and have narrowed it down to sparging. When I no-sparge I get no off/harsh flavors.

Thanks in advance

Do ypu grind your own grains....or do you buy them ground? I ask because maybe the grind isnt quit right......

How do you NO SPARGE brew? Do you add all the water you plan on at mash in???

My efficiency today on Edworts Hefeweizen....yes I brewed it today as well....was aroud 70%.....with a batch sparge.

I don't get bad flavors from batch sparging and neither should you.

The red flag that I see is you building water. Use some well water or spring water or some other natural source as a control. I may be called out as a philistene for saying so, but leave the techy nerd stuff for later in the learning curve. People got by brewing with "raw water (TM)" for the first 99.999% of brewing history.

mgortel:
I grind my grains with the mill at my LHBS, I believe it is set at .40. I will be buying a mill sometime soon and plan on grinding myself.

For no-sparging I add all my water to my tun then add my grains and salts and stir. I stir several times throughout the mash. I do a iodine conversion test near the end and it seems to be converted.

I generally end up with about a gallon of extra wort in the tun though, I assume that is a problem? Also would there be any issues with draining the mash too quickly? I might be doing that.

Northcalais40:
I agree that I should not be getting off flavors, but for some reason I do. I dont know why, but when I batch sparge I get a harsh/astringent bitterness, that lingers after the beer starts to go down.

When I switched to Distilled water and added salts myself and bought a new thermometer I thought that would solve the issue. I made a pale ale and batch sparged and my efficiency was actually pretty good on that one. The beer was good, but still had the astringent off flavor. Granted it was not as bad as my previous beers, but it was still there.

I definitely noticed a difference in the body and mouth feel of my beers when I switched to distilled water. When I tried no-sparge brewing there was no off flavors, or astringency that I could pick up. So, that would lead me to believe that I am getting some tannins or something when I sparge.

Building water does not seem to be that difficult, although I am new at it. I plan on buying a milligram scale so I can get more accurate measurements. The beer just seems to be better when I use the distilled water.

What salts and how much are you using?

What exactly is your method when you do sparge? what temp? maybe something is off in your sparging technique

I would guess a lot of people on this forum batch sparge and make good beer, which leads me to believe the problem your're having with off flavors is coming from somewhere else. I would second the comment to use some spring water for a few batches, get your efficiency under control, and then go from there to building water. One variable at a time you know

Yeah, I agree with the others...you seem to be messing with several variables. I do no-sparge on my lighter brews (less than 1.050 OG) and have no issues. Getting off-flavors with something as neutral as a hefe could be due to trying to get too much wort out of your grist--a typical source of astringency--which could be linked to the no sparge method. Regarding your OG difference, .05 ain't that big of a deal and could be something as simple as measurement error. Get a refractometer and keep track of your gravity as you collect your wort. Common wisdom says to stop before you get to 1.010--I prefer to stay a fair ways above that.

Personal preference--unless your tap water is absolute ****e (doubtful since you live in Milwaukee, which has brewed a bit of beer over the years), lose the distilled water and the extensive and complex salts additions--it's real easy to screw up. Either get a Ward Labs analysis or just look up a typical profile for your area and go from there with the salts--going real easy on the quantities.

To my mind, the things I would do to try to fix this would be:

1) go back to the tap. Try to get your water profile report, and then work initially on brewing a beer that corresponds to that water profile. You can mess with brew salts later, but first you want to get the mash process down pat, which will be easier if you eliminate variables up front.

2) sparge slowly. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about having 1 gal. of extra wort in the tun--is this due to the location of your drain spigot, or because your sparge is getting stuck? If the latter, slowing your sparge will help, and is better for increasing efficiency at any rate. If you're having issues with the grain bed compacting too much and leaving wort in the tun, toss in a couple of handfuls of rice hulls to increase your drainage--they're cheap and effective.

3) Check your gravity as you sparge--I believe this is more important for fly sparging than for batch sparging, but if your sparge water drops below about 1.007 (temperature corrected), you're at risk of extracting tannins from the malt, which could be contributing to your off-flavors.

Until you get your efficiency up a little bit, compensate by increasing your grainbill by 10-15% across the board. It's cheap to do, and you won't be so worried about getting your volume that you'll risk tannin extraction and ruining your batch. Once you've narrowed your problems, you can dial it back easily. It's a psychological thing, but I always feel better about overshooting my target OG a little bit rather than undershooting!

Cheers.

Astringency can be related to a high PH and sparging with water over170

A good mill setting gap is .035 so at .040 your crush is too course so get your mill or grind twice

You are not getting the astringent problem with no sparge because your mash pH is probably correct and the water temp is within proper range, then when you sparge the PH of the sparge water is probably high along with the temp.

Wow, a lot of good stuff!

RoadKing:
I use the standard salts. Gypsum, Calcium Chlroide, Epsom salt. The amount I use is based on the recipe. For example, I made a Carmel Amber Ale yesterday and I used 2 grams of Gypsum, 5g of CaCl2 and 3g of Epsom. This got me to an estimated mash PH of 5.44. I mashed with 8.5lbs pale malt and 1.8lbs of Carmel 80 I also made Carmel sugar for the biol as well). I was aming for a balanced amber beer. The recipe normally calls for 7lbs of pale malt and 1lbs of carmel 80, so I did compensate for the bad eff. My water profile would have been around
64ppm CA, 10ppm Mg, 85ppm Cl, and 81ppm SO4. I bought a scale so I will be using that in the future to measure the salts, but for this beer I used various teaspoon sizes to get the correct amount. For this recipe I did a no-sparge brew.

Odin_Brews:
When I do sparge I calculate how much water I need and then dump it on top of the grains after the first runnings have been drained. I mix it and let it sit for 10 min and drain again, until I have the volume I need. Temp is around 160.

jturie:
I have a refractometer, I check the gravity when I first run off an after I have the final volume in the fettle nad after I am done with the boil.

As far as water goes you should start with This ,then while your in the brew science read, ALOT,
You really can't add salts like that without a PH meter, or use one of the ph calculators. You shouldn't ever need epsom salts and I personally don't like what sulfate (gypsum) does to my beer.
(A harsh aftertaste.)

jerrodm:
I think you are right, I will go back to the tap water and order a report from Ward Labs. I have the water report that Milwaukee has on the city website, but that doesnt mean that the water coming out of my pipes has that same profile.
I never get stuck sparges, I just always have left over wort in the tun, Not sure if that is a problem or not.

duboman:
I know for some of my eairler batches I did sparge too hot, which may have been the culprit for some of the batches, but not for some other batches.

In either case I will go back to square one and start from the begining and control my temperature, flow rate, and see what I actually have coming out of the tap, and see if it will work or what needs to be added.

one other question. what do soem of you do to acidify your sparge water? I have 88% lactic acidand can add a few mLs to the water, but is that enough? Should I make sure the sparge water is 160ish? Should I use more water for the initial mash, or for sparging?

RoadKing:
Thanks, I read the primer and it is a pretty straight forward, easy approach. I will definitelty use the recommendations when I get my water report. I do use EZ water, as it is seems to be the simplest way to calculate how much salts are needed based on different desired water profiles. I guess I will need to keep breing and trying to perfect my method.

As mentioned, I asked about your sparge techniques wondering if temps were too high and you were extracting tannins. at 160 it's actually a bit low (168 being typical), but that shouldn't be a problem, it just makes a more fermentable wort. I would really just stop f'in with water and salts and etc. Then see if you can make a decent beer and go up from there

Edit: delete partial post

dixosx said:

I have a refractometer, I check the gravity when I first run off an after I have the final volume in the fettle nad after I am done with the boil.

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Since you took a gravity reading at initial runoff, you should be able to diagnose whether you're dealing with a conversion problem or a sparge problem. Just multiply your refractometer points by volume in gallons of your mash water and compare to the PPG based 100% yield. That's basically your conversion efficiency.

Once you know that then you can further diagnose by taking other measurements if you have too (e.g. pH if you're dealing with a conversion problem). I'd also say don't rule out the crush. My LHBS was also supposedly crushing at around 0.040 and I'd routinely get 55% to 65% efficiency. When I got my new mill and initially set it to 0.045 the difference in crush was obvious and my efficiency started going up to around 75%.

Hex23
Since you took a gravity reading at initial runoff, you should be able to diagnose whether you're dealing with a conversion problem or a sparge problem. Just multiply your refractometer points by volume in gallons of your mash water and compare to the PPG based 100% yield. That's basically your conversion efficiency.

Good Idea, I will give this a shot. I am sure the crush is a part of the problem, not sure how much, but I have never made a beer that was the correct eff. it has always been low, regular tap water or RO with salts. The only other issue is the astringent taste, which I will have to mess around with sparging to see where that is comping from. Does anyone else use acid in the sparge, or do you just use plain ol water.

dixosx said:

Does anyone else use acid in the sparge, or do you just use plain ol water.

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In the past on pilsner recipes I've treated all my mash and sparge waters (together) with 88% lactic acid. Never noticed any problems with taste.

OP: Did you ever mention what efficiency you're getting? Are you unhappy with your efficiency value or are you unhappy with your repeatability (or both)?

Tannins come from a combination of temperature and PH. Batch spargers usually don't have much to worry about here because there are plenty of sugars in the wort even during a second batch sparge. I generally sparge with 180+ degree water, though I only do one big sparge after initial runoff, not multiple. If you do multiple, the second (or third, cringe) additions you wouldn't want super hot water, but it's the grain temp that's key. When I put 180* water into a 145* grist (after initial runoff) it only raises the overall temp up to about 160something. You just wouldn't want to add a bunch of 212 to a small grain bed and get the total temps over 170, IF the gravity is low. Again, batch spargers generally don't have issues here.

I've run off slow and fast. Efficiency is always pegged at 80% for me. Now, I do get some slow runoff near the end. My grain bed compacts pretty tight and sometimes I have to stop, stir, vorlauf and run the last few gallons off, but it's never affected my efficiency one bit, how I run off, rate, etc.

Doing no sparge and leaving a gallon of wort will affect your efficiency, just like batch sparging. You're diluting all available sugars up among the liquid in the tun, so divide the total sugar by gallons added and that's how much you're leaving behind per gallon still in the tun. However, you should be planning for this. You can't just arbitrarily throw in more grain and hope it's enough. Use software or at least formulas to determine the extract you're going to get from the grain you use, at the efficiency you plan for, and then adjust until your gravity is where you want it.

tre9er said:

Use software or at least formulas to determine the extract you're going to get from the grain you use, at the efficiency you plan for, and then adjust until your gravity is where you want it.

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This should also help you avoid leaving so much water behind. I've done no sparge and batch sparge and with proper calculations I always seem to hit my pre boil volume right as the runnings slow to a trickle.

dixosx said:

Good Idea, I will give this a shot. I am sure the crush is a part of the problem, not sure how much, but I have never made a beer that was the correct eff. it has always been low, regular tap water or RO with salts. The only other issue is the astringent taste, which I will have to mess around with sparging to see where that is comping from. Does anyone else use acid in the sparge, or do you just use plain ol water.

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I guess I assumed you had written this data down and could figure it out retrospectively, but if not ...

The other thing you can do with a refractometer in this situation is monitor the mash before you start the runoff. Just let it keep going as long as gravity keeps going up or you hit your desired conversion efficiency. Extra time can compensate for other inhibiting factors, especially a poor crush. When I came to the conclusion that poor crush was a major problem for me, I was monitoring my mash and watched it go from 65% to 70% efficiency over the span from 60 to 90 minutes. It's not nice to have to wait an extra 30 minutes, but until you fix the problem, at least you may not have to alter the recipe by adding extract or boiling longer.

Next time I brew I will do a control batch with a simple pale ale recipe I have brewed before (Edworts pale ale). I will use tap water with no mineral additions, do a batch sparge with one sparge, and make sure I get the temps correct. I will see how it turns out and if the eff is off, and if the astringent flavor is there, ad then make adjustments from there.