Please help me in understanding mash pH

I'm having tannin issues and so far, I've put together a few steps to try and eliminate them moving forward. However, I'm having a hard time understanding mash pH and how to control it.

I went to the brew wiki page and became quite confused. I apologize ahead of time but I'm not the best reading comprehend'er, so I kinda need someone to talk me through it.

I do 1 gallon BIAB batches. I calculate my total volume of water, mash in, mash out, and then boil for the allotted time. I usually have a tad bit more wort than I need, but usually hit my numbers and never have to "top off."

I've never taken my mash pH before, but I'm thinking I should start due to my tannin/astringency issues. I've made some notes of some other things to do for my next brew to try and rid myself of the tannin issue, but I keep reading how mash pH is incredibly important with regards to tannins.

Can anyone out there help me out please? Most appreciated.

Start by reading the Primer and any post you see from ajdelange or mabrungard in the Brew Science section.

It would be much better if you give us more details about the water you are brewing with .

Hector

1. What water are you using (tap, bottled, RO, softened?)
2. What types of beer are you brewing (all base? lots of crystal?)

This should be a good start!

For every batch that I brew, I use bottled Poland Spring water
I'm brewing all types. IPA's, Wheat Beers, Stouts, etc (see my list below)

Every beer I've brewed has had a metallic, astringent, off taste to it. I'm trying to hone in on why this is happening, and am wondering if my mash pH is all messed up.

JeffoC6 said:

For every batch that I brew, I use bottled Poland Spring water

Click to expand...

Write down the water profile , please .

Do you add any salt to the water prior to brewing ?

Hector

hector said:

Write down the water profile , please .

Do you add any salt to the water prior to brewing ?

Hector

Click to expand...

How do I go about obtaining the water profile of Poland Spring water?
Why would I add salt?

I found this online?

SUBSTANCE MRL* MCL** LEVEL FOUND
Inorganic Minerals and Metals
Calcium 0.10 NR 4.2-11
Sodium 0.20 NR 1.8-6.6
Potassium 0.10 NR ND-0.78
Fluoride 0.100 2.0 (1.4 – 2.4) ND-0.10
Magnesium 0.10 NR 0.88-1.5
Bicarbonate 1.0 NR 15-250
Nitrate 0.010 10.00 0.11-0.58
Chloride 1.10 250 ND-9.2
Copper 0.050 1.0 ND
pH (units) t NA 6.5 – 8.5 6.7-7.0
Sulfate t 0.10 250.00 1.6-6.3
Arsenic 0.0014 0.010 ND
Lead 0.005 0.005 ND
Total Dissolved Solids t 1.00 500 40-65

The bicarbonate from the 2011 report might be an error, not sure it was ever 250 mg/L. Everything else is very low. I found a 2010 report that shows about the same with very low bicarbonate alkalinity as well.

I would just treat this like RO water -- it's essentially a blank slate. Great for brewing, but you'll need to add a few things back in.

Once you assume it's just like RO water, the water chemistry primer in the sticky section of this forum will make a lot more sense.

Adding a little calcium chloride and sometimes calcium sulfate will make a lot of really good beers with that water.

JeffoC6 said:

How do I go about obtaining the water profile of Poland Spring water?

Click to expand...

I also use bottled spring water . The profile is printed on the label , attached to the bottle .

The most important factor you should take care of is the Alkalinity of the water .

I wanted to see if you added any salt to adjust the pH . For example , sodium bicarbonate can lead to a metallic aftertaste ( due to my experience ) .

Hector

GotPushrods said:

The bicarbonate from the 2011 report might be an error, not sure it was ever 250 mg/L. Everything else is very low. I found a 2010 report that shows about the same with very low bicarbonate alkalinity as well.

I would just treat this like RO water -- it's essentially a blank slate. Great for brewing, but you'll need to add a few things back in.

Once you assume it's just like RO water, the water chemistry primer in the sticky section of this forum will make a lot more sense.

Adding a little calcium chloride and sometimes calcium sulfate will make a lot of really good beers with that water.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your help, but I just want to make a beer that doesn't make me pucker up and shiver. Do I really have to do all this? Everyone (when I started out) told me that you should just use water that "tastes good." Well, I've been, and my beer hasn't tasted good yet, and I've brewed 25 batches (1-gallon). I'm incredibly frustrated and to be quite honest, I didn't think I'd have to read and understand the chemistry of my bottled water to make a drinkable beer...If indeed this is true, then maybe this hobby isn't for me.

JeffoC6 said:

I appreciate your help, but I just want to make a beer that doesn't make me pucker up and shiver. Do I really have to do all this? Everyone (when I started out) told me that you should just use water that "tastes good." Well, I've been, and my beer hasn't tasted good yet, and I've brewed 25 batches (1-gallon). I'm incredibly frustrated and to be quite honest, I didn't think I'd have to read and understand the chemistry of my bottled water to make a drinkable beer...If indeed this is true, then maybe this hobby isn't for me.

Click to expand...

A lot of people have average water, and make average beer that tastes good to them. They've never felt the effects of very hard or alkaline water, or visa-versa. Buying such soft, low alkalinity bottled water opens you up to making GREAT beer, but on it's own it's that great for brewing.

It's not as hard as it might seem at first. You literally just get a bucket of your water, and dump a teaspoon of this, and maybe 2 teaspoons of that in. And you're good to go. It's pretty forgiving. You probably won't know the different between 50 and 80 ppm calcium for instance.

Deciding what to add is the hardest part, and it's not difficult at all. If you read the primer and it's still foggy, read it again a few times. I promise it will get easier.

There are only a few ions you need to worry about in brewing water, and only a few salts you add that contribute those.

If you're thinking the water might be a problem why don't you try a batch with tap water? You're only doing small batches so you can boil and cool it. That should help precipitate things out and de-gas the chlorine.

Hell, it's a test you can do that will actually reduce your brewing costs.

JeffoC6 said:

I'm incredibly frustrated and to be quite honest, I didn't think I'd have to read and understand the chemistry of my bottled water to make a drinkable beer...If indeed this is true, then maybe this hobby isn't for me.

Click to expand...

It's NOT so complicated as you think .

The water you are using is really very low in hardness ( Ca ) and with a pH > 6 , then your mash pH would never be in the appropriate range .

In other words , you need a minimum concentration of Calcium ion ( 50 ppm ) to react with the phosphate from the malt in order to reduce the mash pH .

The best thing to do is to add Gypsum ( CaSO4 ) and Calcium Chloride ( CaCl2 ) .


Hector

So you guys are saying that Poland Spring water is my issue?
So does that mean that every other AG brewer out there using Poland Spring water is having the same problems I am?

JeffoC6 said:

So does that mean that every other AG brewer out there using Poland Spring water is having the same problems I am?

Click to expand...

If they don't treat the water just like you , then the answer is YES .

Hector

One way to see if it's water related is to brew with distilled water with some calcium chloride added and stick to a simple blonde recipe.

So are you all saying that I basically have to buy some of these ingredients that you're listing (calcium chloride, gypsum, etc.) in order to make beer that doesn't taste like I'm licking a copper penny?

Or my alternative is to simply trying brewing with my tap water, or brewing with distilled water and see what happens?

I'd really rather KNOW what I'm going to be getting...So what do I do?

For about 4 bucks, you'll have a huge supply of what you need. Every brew shop will have these:

2 oz Calcium Chloride - $1.50 (Will last about 10 5-gal batches)
2 oz Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) - $1.15 (Will last me 10-30 5-gal batches)
1 lb Chalk (Calcium Carbonate) - $1.10 (Rarely used, even in stouts. I will be buried with it)

I would actually recommend pickling lime instead of chalk, but you get the idea. That's all you need.

JeffoC6 said:

So you guys are saying that Poland Spring water is my issue?
So does that mean that every other AG brewer out there using Poland Spring water is having the same problems I am?

Click to expand...

No.

But here's what I'd do. Buy some calcium chloride, and use the Poland Spring water according to this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Or, since the beers don't taste all that good, try reverse osmosis water for one batch and use the calcium chloride. If the beer is better, then you know it was the Poland Spring water.

I use reverse osmosis water for the most part, because my tap water is highly alkaline. I learned that by sending a water sample to Ward Labs. For $16.50, you can get a full water report and see what your tap water needs to be usable for brewing.

Ok, so if I pick those things up, you're saying I can still use the Poland Spring water, but will add a little of this and a little of that, almost like I'm making a soup?

I've had every batch I've brewed (EVERY batch has used Poland Spring) come out with a metallic, sharp, tannin/astringent taste which is basically overpowering everything. All of my beers basically taste the same because of it. I'm tired of it and want to figure this problem out. I know I'm not mashing to hot, or boiling my grains, and I know that I don't have infections, but even still, I'm going to keep an eye on my mash out temps (usually mash out at 170 but moving forward am going to try 160).

JeffoC6 said:

like I'm licking a copper penny?

Click to expand...

Metallic flavors can be harder to pin down than tannin/astringency.

Give this a read and see which you think most closely resembles what you're tasting. You specifically asked about water and pH, but now that you said 'penny', hey you never know.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html/

JeffoC6 said:

Ok, so if I pick those things up, you're saying I can still use the Poland Spring water, but will add a little of this and a little of that, almost like I'm making a soup?

I've had every batch I've brewed (EVERY batch has used Poland Spring) come out with a metallic, sharp, tannin/astringent taste which is basically overpowering everything. All of my beers basically taste the same because of it. I'm tired of it and want to figure this problem out. I know I'm not mashing to hot, or boiling my grains, and I know that I don't have infections, but even still, I'm going to keep an eye on my mash out temps (usually mash out at 170 but moving forward am going to try 160).

Click to expand...

No, definitely NOT "a little of this, a little of that"! Seriously- maybe 1/4 teaspoon of calcium chloride for a 1 gallon batch for most beers. That's it.

Absolutely NO chalk at all, unless you have a way to bubble co2 through the water to dissolve the chalk- in other words, never use chalk.

You don't need gypsum either, until you know if you need it. If you need it, generally you will know after a few batches of using reverse osmosis water and calcium chloride only.

Since you're routinely getting this off flavor, I'd strongly suggest using reverse osmosis water and calcium chloride for one batch.

JeffoC6 said:

Ok, so if I pick those things up, you're saying I can still use the Poland Spring water, but will add a little of this and a little of that, almost like I'm making a soup?

Click to expand...

Yep. Get your mash water ready, and add enough based on your calculations. Either just a SWAG via the Primer, or using any of the spreadsheets out there. (EZ Water, Bru'n Water, etc).


Back when I very first started brewing, I was plagued with the same off flavor in almost every batch. It was very frustrating so I know how you feel. I finally discovered that my water company had switched to chloramines instead of chlorine and I was producing nasty chlorophenols. Once I started treating for those everything got VERY good.

That first batch of great beer makes it all worth it.

Yooper said:

No, definitely NOT "a little of this, a little of that"! Seriously- maybe 1/4 teaspoon of calcium chloride for a 1 gallon batch for most beers. That's it.

Absolutely NO chalk at all, unless you have a way to bubble co2 through the water to dissolve the chalk- in other words, never use chalk.

You don't need gypsum either, until you know if you need it. If you need it, generally you will know after a few batches of using reverse osmosis water and calcium chloride only.

Since you're routinely getting this off flavor, I'd strongly suggest using reverse osmosis water and calcium chloride for one batch.

Click to expand...

So how does one go about getting RO water? I trust you, Yoop, and will pick up some calcium chloride before my next batch, but how on earth do I make RO water? haha

GotPushrods said:

Yep. Get your mash water ready, and add enough based on your calculations. Either just a SWAG via the Primer, or using any of the spreadsheets out there. (EZ Water, Bru'n Water, etc).


Back when I very first started brewing, I was plagued with the same off flavor in almost every batch. It was very frustrating so I know how you feel. I finally discovered that my water company had switched to chloramines instead of chlorine and I was producing nasty chlorophenols. Once I started treating for those everything got VERY good.

That first batch of great beer makes it all worth it.

Click to expand...

So you know the flavor I'm talking about? Please let me have your brain for a minute or two.

For the longest while, I thought it was "carbonic bite." I'd open a beer, pour it, and I'd sniff it and while it'd smell like beer, I'd get absolutely no hop aroma, other than a very basic whiff of it. The rest of the aroma was drowned out by this metallic/sharp scent.

Then when I'd take a sip, it would be sharp on my tongue, and kind of get sour on the sides of my tongue. All of my IPA's tasted exactly like this. My stouts too, although darker and roastier versions of the same metallic taste.

When I'd burp, I'd get that flavor repeated, it would be clean, sharp, and metallic.

This is exactly what you had?

Your water is almost similar to RO-water due to very low concentrations .

As I said , the off-taste in your Beer is because of lack of hardness which leads to a high mash pH .
The best way for you is to add CaSO4 or CaCl2 to the spring water and see the result .

Hector

hector said:

Your water is almost similar to RO-water due to very low concentrations .

As I said , the off-taste in your Beer is because of lack of hardness which leads to a high mash pH .
The best way for you is to add CaSO4 or CaCl2 to the spring water and see the result .

Hector

Click to expand...

What's CaS04 or CaCI2? I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't mind "dumbing it down" for me. Thanks...

JeffoC6 said:

So how does one go about getting RO water? I trust you, Yoop, and will pick up some calcium chloride before my next batch, but how on earth do I make RO water? haha

Click to expand...

I don't know about where you live, but in many places there is a "water machine" that is like $.70/gallon for water. The "culligan" one was in my local grocery store, and it stated something like "ultra violet filtered reverse osmosis water" on the side. I've seen them at Wal-mart, and in other places. In Texas, they are literally on street corners and self-serve.

If you don't have easy access to RO water (or are unsure of the exact composition, which is the problem with the Poland Spring water!), you can also use distilled water. It's more expensive, like $1 a gallon, but you won't need much for a 1 gallon batch (maybe three gallons? is that typical?).

JeffoC6 said:

So you know the flavor I'm talking about? Please let me have your brain for a minute or two

Click to expand...

Sorry about that... I meant it was the same flavor across all my brews, not necessarily what you are tasting. I just know what it's like to have a bunch of beers all have the same off-flavor as each other.

Yooper said:

I don't know about where you live, but in many places there is a "water machine" that is like $.70/gallon for water. The "culligan" one was in my local grocery store, and it stated something like "ultra violet filtered reverse osmosis water" on the side. I've seen them at Wal-mart, and in other places. In Texas, they are literally on street corners and self-serve.

If you don't have easy access to RO water (or are unsure of the exact composition, which is the problem with the Poland Spring water!), you can also use distilled water. It's more expensive, like $1 a gallon, but you won't need much for a 1 gallon batch (maybe three gallons? is that typical?).

Click to expand...

Yea, I always buy 3 gallons of water for my brews. Distilled water is absolutely fine for me to get. So I could get 3 gallons of distilled water, and add about 1/4 teaspoon of calcium chloride as you recommended? You think that would work, and eliminate the off flavor I'm getting?

I think distilled water is not a good option for you , since there are no minerals .

You also need Magnesium , Sodium and Carbonate Ions .

By the way , NEVER feel shy to ask a question , even the simplest .

CaSO4 ( Gypsum ) and CaCl2 are water soluble salts which are used in brewing to adjust the pH down and also to accentuate the maltiness or bitterness of the Beer due to the Chloride to Sulfate Ions ratio .

Hector

JeffoC6 said:

Yea, I always buy 3 gallons of water for my brews. Distilled water is absolutely fine for me to get. So I could get 3 gallons of distilled water, and add about 1/4 teaspoon of calcium chloride as you recommended? You think that would work, and eliminate the off flavor I'm getting?

Click to expand...

1/4 tsp PER gallon. 3/4 tsp for all 3 gallons puts you around 60 mg/L calcium and 110 mg/L chloride. Perfect for a lot of beers.

Then I'd just brew a nice simple beer, maybe a lightly hopped pale ale with a neutral yeast fermented under 70 F.

hector said:

I think distilled water is not a good option for you , since there are no minerals .

You also need Magnesium , Sodium and Carbonate Ions .

By the way , NEVER feel shy to ask a question , even the simplest .

CaSO4 ( Gypsum ) and CaCl2 are water soluble salts which are used in brewing to adjust the pH down and also to accentuate the maltiness or bitterness of the Beer due to the Chloride to Sulfate Ions ratio .

Hector

Click to expand...

So what would you recommend for me then? I don't really want to be adjusting my waters each and every brew. I'm sort of low maintenance, and just want to brew tasty beer. I'm not going for world class right now.

What water would you suggest? And what would you add to suggested water?

JeffoC6 said:

What's CaS04 or CaCI2? I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't mind "dumbing it down" for me. Thanks...

Click to expand...

CaCl2 is the chemical formula for calcium chloride. CaS04 is the chemical formula for gypsum (calcium sulfate). You don't need the gypsum to start out with, but it's used to increase the sulfate level. Some people say that higher sulfate levels can bring out the bitterness of hops, but I'm finding that more and more of my best IPAs have a low to moderate amount of sulfate. I wouldn't suggest adding ANY at all until you taste a beer and say, "Geez, I wish the bittering was enhanced" because each of us perceives it a bit differently and my preference for sure is less.

In fact, with all of my water additions, I've become a firm believer in "less is more". If you used 100% distilled water, the "worst" that could happen is a bland beer. If you used 100% reverse osmosis water, sometimes that would also be the result. Using a "less is more" philosophy means moderate additions, and then finding out where your off-flavor is coming from. If distilled or RO water plus a bit of calcium chloride doesn't fix it, then it's definitely from something else. But if you add "a little of this, a little of that", then you still won't know.

GotPushrods said:

1/4 tsp PER gallon. 3/4 tsp for all 3 gallons puts you around 60 mg/L calcium and 110 mg/L chloride. Perfect for a lot of beers.

Then I'd just brew a nice simple beer, maybe a lightly hopped pale ale with a neutral yeast fermented under 70 F.

Click to expand...

What if I wanted to brew, say, a DFH 60 minute clone with this water profile. Would that pose a problem with what you're outlining above?

JeffoC6 said:

So what would you recommend for me then? I don't really want to be adjusting my waters each and every brew. I'm sort of low maintenance, and just want to brew tasty beer. I'm not going for world class right now.

What water would you suggest? And what would you add to suggested water?

Click to expand...

I don't know if you're asking me or not. But I'd buy 100% RO water, with the amount of cacl2 (calcium chloride) recommended which is very very little, and that's about it. Read the primer- it recommends a very very simple method- for a 5 gallon batch, 5 grams of calcium chloride to RO water. For a minerally/hoppy beer, adding some gypsum is ok. That's about it.

(You don't need magnesium, sodium, or carbonate. That's silly).

JeffoC6 said:

What if I wanted to brew, say, a DFH 60 minute clone with this water profile. Would that pose a problem with what you're outlining above?

Click to expand...

That would work. The only other thing to possibly consider is that some sulfate may "enhance" hops bitterness. You could use the same amount of gypsum as calcium chloride, and enhance the hoppiness. Or you could leave out the gypsum and go with the calcium chloride for a nice "rounded" mouthfeel.

I know that doesn't seem to make sense, if you've never perceived a "rounded" mouthfeel. I can't otherwise explain it. Maybe fuller? Brighter? But not fuller like thick, maybe fuller like "richer".

JeffoC6 said:

What if I wanted to brew, say, a DFH 60 minute clone with this water profile. Would that pose a problem with what you're outlining above?

Click to expand...

Nope, you can brew a lot of really good beer with a blank slate + a little calcium chloride. If you decide eventually that you like the 'harsher' punch from hops, you can substitute some gypsum (calcium sulfate) for a portion of your calcium chloride.

Keep in mind that most of the time you're still not going to get your pH down to 5.2 (considered the sweet spot by many), but you'll be very close, and certainly MUCH closer than you could otherwise without thinking about water at all.

If you just want to keep it simple and don't ever see yourself nerding out to the water, these suggestions will make great beer. If you are still having problems after that, it's time to look elsewhere.

Thanks all.

Here's my plan moving forward with my next batch:

Remember, this is for an AG 1-Gallon BIAB batch. Here are the notes that I've compiled throughout the day to adjust for the off flavor that I've been having. Please critique this process and advise of your thoughts...

Use 3 gallons of 100% RO water (If I can find it) and add 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of calcium chloride.

Don't go to 170 when mashing out. I may be extracting tannins. Go to 160-165

Because I'm crushing my grains "fine," even though I'm doing BIAB, I may still be getting a lot of grain material in my boil, which could be extracting tannins. For my next batch, don't have my grains crushed as fine, and simply adjust my efficiency moving forward for a less fine crush.

After pulling the bag out of my kettle, run the collected wort through a doubled up strainer and another paint strainer bag to filter out particles/grain material. The strainers and paint strainer bag will filter out any particles/grain material almost like a filter. This will help to reduce the amount of grain material I may be boiling, and thus, causing my astringent/tannin flavor.