Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

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What do you guys think about pressure fermentations? Time for a poll.

  • I've done it and I liked it just fine!

  • I've done it, nothing wrong with it, but prefer normal fermentation techniques.

  • I've done it, hate it, and never will do it again!

  • I've never done it, but it is on my list!

  • I've never done anything. I only brew beer in my mind.


Results are only viewable after voting.
I have an APA fermenting now, it started with a 1.058 OG and using US-05 yeast.

Tonight will be 4 complete days and when I measure the gravity tonight I expect to start a diacetyl rest. I'm currently at 65F @ 7 psi.

I'm wanting to crank up both the temperature and pressure like some of you do (WortMonger is one). I want to go to 70F for the d-rest. Would 30 psi be pushing the envelope, if it will get that high?

I'm looking at this chart;
http://beerismypassion.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/co2-chart.jpg
 
Do you think that you could water filter out the "sticky vapor" in the gas? Something simple like using a reservoir a quarter full of water where the gas enters below the liquid level and the vent to the spunding valve is at the top. That might trap any "sticky vapor" in the water, but I think that any steel would still rust.
 
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Probably a better idea than what I suggested. The oil/water filter is designed to keep moisture created by the compressor out of pneumatic devices. Water filtration is an simple industrial method to remove particles from exhaust.

Islandboy... that is exactly what I was talking about.

Malfet, are you also having rust issues w your spunding?
 
kwadric said:
Malfet, are you also having rust issues w your spunding?

I use a digital mass flow controller with inline pressure transducer. It's the same principle as a spring-driven spunding valve, but it is controlled by a microprocessor. I am, however, having some trouble with the valve on that. I'm going to take it apart tonight and hope I can clean it.
 
I read your article about controlle back-pressure relief and was wondering how you made the sampling tube and you mention that you got some yeast coming out of your valve? Was that the control valve that you set the pressure? I have a set-up for a corny keg and just want to know how much of a mess I could have on my hands.
 
With all the talk this month about spunding valves corroding and meeting their early demise, can we add enough water to our 'ganged' corny (or other pressure tank, i.e. water filter housing) that the water is above the beverage tube?, like kwadric mentioned.

I'm guessing that the water filter housing can be fitted with a down tube.

Would this principle work?

1) Find a way to prohibit krausen from getting all up in your spunding valve. Mine is to use a second pressure vessel (corny) that is ganged to my primary as a blow-off collector- and I put the spunding valve on it. Another way would be to just not fill as high as I do.

I also use a corny for this purpose (to protect the spunding valve), I got the idea from this thread from Poindexter.
 
With all the talk this month about spunding valves corroding and meeting their early demise, can we add enough water to our 'ganged' corny (or other pressure tank, i.e. water filter housing) that the water is above the beverage tube?, like kwadric mentioned.

I'm guessing that the water filter housing can be fitted with a down tube.

Would this principle work?



I also use a corny for this purpose (to protect the spunding valve), I got the idea from this thread from Poindexter.

what I was planning on doing is this. take a recipe for a 5 gallon beer. only make 4 gallons. That of course would be a higher gravity beer than the recipe intended. daisy chain 2 corny kegs and have 1 gallon of boiled and cooled water in the second keg. as the fermentation takes place in the first keg, the CO2 would be filtered through the water in second keg and it would carbonate the water. When everything is done and I have 4 gallons of finished carbonated beer, transfer it into the second keg with the 1 gallon of carbonated water. If filled from the liquid out side it should mix with the water as it fills making 5 gallons of beer as intended by the recipe.

think that would work?
 
Mysticmead said:
what I was planning on doing is this. take a recipe for a 5 gallon beer. only make 4 gallons. That of course would be a higher gravity beer than the recipe intended. daisy chain 2 corny kegs and have 1 gallon of boiled and cooled water in the second keg. as the fermentation takes place in the first keg, the CO2 would be filtered through the water in second keg and it would carbonate the water. When everything is done and I have 4 gallons of finished carbonated beer, transfer it into the second keg with the 1 gallon of carbonated water. If filled from the liquid out side it should mix with the water as it fills making 5 gallons of beer as intended by the recipe.

think that would work?

So long as you're not trying that with a high gravity recipe to start with it sounds good. Don't want to stress the yeast.
 
what I was planning on doing is this. take a recipe for a 5 gallon beer. only make 4 gallons. That of course would be a higher gravity beer than the recipe intended. daisy chain 2 corny kegs and have 1 gallon of boiled and cooled water in the second keg. as the fermentation takes place in the first keg, the CO2 would be filtered through the water in second keg and it would carbonate the water. When everything is done and I have 4 gallons of finished carbonated beer, transfer it into the second keg with the 1 gallon of carbonated water. If filled from the liquid out side it should mix with the water as it fills making 5 gallons of beer as intended by the recipe.

think that would work?

Poindexter is doing it, but in a different fashion.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/cl...tion-technique-44344/index78.html#post2839636

I like his other threads too;
Cold Component Keg Creativity
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/cold-component-keg-creativity-50550/#post505672
Spunding valve - video
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/spunding-valve-video-49364/#post492316
 
Sorry Mysticmead for not answering your question fully, the high gravity brewing wiki describes the general method along with Wortmonger's. I don't know if what you want to do is 'safe', if the combined generated gases would contaminate the gallon of water or not.

I wish someone would chime in so I could get my answer about if it would 'wash' the 'sticky' gas away and protect the sounding valve.
 
I wish someone would chime in so I could get my answer about if it would 'wash' the 'sticky' gas away and protect the sounding valve.

I'm skeptical that a bubbler would be effective at scrubbing out aerosolized carbohydrates, though I've never tried it. Likewise, I can't imagine desiccant would act fast enough to be effective. I've been really happy with the simple inline filter I've got. It seems like a cheap, small, and effective solution as far as I can tell.

For what it's worth, too, I don't want to overstate the corrosion on the spunding valve. I've been using mine with a water trap for some time now and have had very little trouble, despite significant abuse. It'd be nice to have a solid stainless unit just for cleaning purposes, but I'm very happy with the options that exist in the meantime.
 
MalFet said:
I'm skeptical that a bubbler would be effective at scrubbing out aerosolized carbohydrates, though I've never tried it. Likewise, I can't imagine desiccant would act fast enough to be effective. I've been really happy with the simple inline filter I've got. It seems like a cheap, small, and effective solution as far as I can tell.

For what it's worth, too, I don't want to overstate the corrosion on the spunding valve. I've been using mine with a water trap for some time now and have had very little trouble, despite significant abuse. It'd be nice to have a solid stainless unit just for cleaning purposes, but I'm very happy with the options that exist in the meantime.

Not trying to start a war, just friendly conversation. So, I've got no proof for my argument, but if you push an aerosol through a liquid wouldn't it scrub it, especially since the water is a lower SG than beer. I assume it would bubble through the water and have to scrub out because its heavier than the water.
 
Not trying to start a war, just friendly conversation. So, I've got no proof for my argument, but if you push an aerosol through a liquid wouldn't it scrub it, especially since the water is a lower SG than beer. I assume it would bubble through the water and have to scrub out because its heavier than the water.

War? Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression! I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you. :mug:

Anyway, I guess I'm not really clear what kind of mechanism you're proposing here. Certainly some aerosolized solids could fall out, but we're talking about large bubbles that won't even have collapsed by the time they hit the surface again. You've got a big pocket of gas that travels up more or less intact. How would this filter the CO2?
 
Wouldn't putting the micromatic co2 filter in line between the keg and the spunding valve be enough to "unsticky" the air before it hits the valve?
 
MalFet said:
War? Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression! I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you. :mug:

Anyway, I guess I'm not really clear what kind of mechanism you're proposing here. Certainly some aerosolized solids could fall out, but we're talking about large bubbles that won't even have collapsed by the time they hit the surface again. You've got a big pocket of gas that travels up more or less intact. How would this filter the CO2?

No, you were fine. I just have a habit of coming across a bit strong, do wanted to just put it out there before I started :) what if you used a down tube in the filter housing that runs under some type of diffuser such as a pot scrubber to break up the bubbles?
 
I'm back to my pressure fermenting in a sanke and ran into a problem. My relief valves from grainger don't seem to be releasing anything!

35834d1318482930-closed-system-pressurized-fermentation-technique-variable-pressure-relief-valve-4tk26_as01.jpg


I've done several batches using them and wondering if maybe at some point some wort sealed them up or something? I have two identical ones and both aren't working.

I currently am just manually releasing pressure on the sanke's relief valve to keep it around 5. I am going to take a gravity reading shortly here to see where I am at and maybe can just let it ramp up at this point, but really confused. I try completely opening and closing them without any sound or movement on the psi gauge.

So I soak them in PBW or something?

So I soaked one of my valves in oxiclean overnight, and no change... Is there a way to take this thing apart?
 
-MG- said:
So I soaked one of my valves in oxiclean overnight, and no change... Is there a way to take this thing apart?

Yes, just un-crank it all the way and then it hits resistance. I can't remember if there is a screw in the black handle or not, but if there is remove it before un-screwing past the resistance. When putting it back together, try to keep it level while screwing. You will see when it is apart why. Should have a steel spring and a cone-shaped metal plug to act as the gas stop. This is the one I am currently using that has a corroded spring and corroded plug. There are nicks in the plug and the spring looks rusted. Let us know how yours looks please. I have to try the one even I recommend last before I go have anything else machined, or spend the bucks to have a MalFet copy ;) which sounds very fun btw.

PS, if the plug doesn't come out it is stuck and you have to punch it out.
 
Mine has a screw on the end which I removed. However, after twisting the valve all the way open (farthest back) to which the valve won't turn anymore, it won't budge. I even took a nail to the inside (where the spring is) and tried to hammer that valve off and it still won't budge. I wasn't too aggressive on the swings, but can't believe its not budging. Maybe a hot water soak?
 
My beer sucessfully fermented using the new "T" gas line shown here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/cl...ion-technique-44344/index168.html#post4917418

I brewed an APA 2 weeks ago that had a SG of 1.057. On day four of primary fermentation, @ 65*F, I took a sample gravity reading and got a 1.013, it was within 2 points of expected OG, so I started a d-rest at 70*F. Four days into d-rest it measured 30 psi @ 70*F, two days later, last day before I started a crash chill, it was ~ 32 psi @ 70*F, gauge being pegged out. I used US-05 and my FG was 1.010.

Got beer for spring break. :D

New photos are posted...
 
I am trying to imagine what you did with your system. Can you give more step-by-step details on the spunding valve and ganged kegs to keep it from getting all sticky.
 
I am trying to imagine what you did with your system. Can you give more step-by-step details on the spunding valve and ganged kegs to keep it from getting all sticky.

As far as the miniature relief valve, some of us have bought from McMaster-Carr #99045K11, I feel that these can be cleaned, if needed. They seem to be made with (Polysulfone, Silicone, Buna-N) only, per the factory; http://www.airtrolinc.com/components/rv_5200_5300.htm
http://www.airtrolinc.com/contact_us.htm
Model #RV-5300-30


2/17/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr

I had an extra keg, I didn't like as much, the blue handle keg is my dedicated 'spartanburg' keg that my spunding valve rides one, to protect my spunding valve from blow off.


11/21/11 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr
 
That settles it for me then! This is the valve we need to push as what to use. I thought this before but didn't absolutely know what the wetted parts were. I love this thread because I have learned so much. I'm ordering mine today and will melt my brass ones down for something cool. Maybe I'll cast a cool tap handle out of them with a little more brass scrap from my old faucets.
 
I actually have one of the mcmaster ones as well and it still works without issue.

My brass ones I cannot get the two of them to function. It's impossible to take the thing a part so far.

Note the mcmaster valve above is a 1/8" fitting I believe and you need to find a reducer.
 
So what is in your second keg wirh the valve on it? The one keg has fermenting beer with a transfer line to the out lines......correct?
 
So what is in your second keg wirh the valve on it? The one keg has fermenting beer with a transfer line to the out lines......correct?
The blue handle keg is empty (on right hand side). Many folks here use a water filter housing for the same purpose, to catch or trap any krausen that may or may not pass through the jumper hose.

Primary fermenting keg is on the left hand side.
 
I can testify that mine is working like a champ.
No problems with the spunding valve yet other than there is no easy way to preset the pressure before attaching to the keg.
Notice that I use a corny keg valve on my setup; I pressure up with an air compressor or co2 tank before attaching so I can set my pressure.
I also like the filter housing for corny kegs because it saves room in my fermentation chamber and cleans faster than a keg.

7362-6525.jpg
 
I see! Do you put an actual filter in it or just water? How much water if you do? Do you ever have to empty it? How has it turned out?
 
When you "set" the pressure with CO2 or air compressor, what do you mean? Don't you have an adjustable valve to set and when the pressure gets to high, it just blows off?
 
owentp said:
When you "set" the pressure with CO2 or air compressor, what do you mean? Don't you have an adjustable valve to set and when the pressure gets to high, it just blows off?

He means he sets the spunding valves pressure release amount with a compressor or CO2 first to get it close to what he wants. The problem is this setting is at one temperature and the actual gas he wants to control is at another. (Since pressure and temperature directly correlate, this is not 100% accurate but close enough to not build up too much or too little until the next adjustment while on the fermenting keg). If there was a device that could be set at say wanted carbonation value, and then self adjust with temperature and pressure that would be ideal. I just wish they made such a thing. Then you could actually set a number value instead of a guess of a knob turn while reading a pressure gauge.
 
I see! Do you put an actual filter in it or just water? How much water if you do? Do you ever have to empty it? How has it turned out?

No filter in it.
I use a pvc tube in the center to fill it from the bottom up; I found that this works better with than without.
Most of the time I start with it empty (no water); but sometimes I do put water in it without the spunding valve and use it as a regular air lock.
I haven't had to empty it yet during a fermentation; rarely gets over half full.
Just make sure you are using fermcap in the keg; I find that it works best when added right at flameout and stirred in while whirlpooling the hops.
It doesn't balance upright very well; it fell over once and made quite a mess. I cut a milk jug and place it inside to help stabilize it. Be careful with the plastic threads; very easy to strip. A pinhole leak kinda screws things up.
 
Do you put a full 5 gallons in your keg with the fermcap? When you say that you use a pvc tube are you referring to cpvc & how do you connect it from the port into the housing?
 
Owentp, As regards to your first question, you can, and I have put 5G into a corny. There are some variables, amount of pressure you allow during the first several days of primary, and yeast, I'm sure too.

I think I have a couple of pictures on my link when I did it and successfully, 10 drops, and 10.5 psi.
 
Sorry for so many questions. I have looked at your picture but it is not all clear. So did you connect your corny to the filter housing by a hose to a barbed fitting? Then what did you connect the PVC material inside your housing to make this work? I have built the spunding valve itself.

Thanks! This is a cool idea and never thought of using one.
 
Sorry for so many questions. I have looked at your picture but it is not all clear. So did you connect your corny to the filter housing by a hose to a barbed fitting? Then what did you connect the PVC material inside your housing to make this work? I have built the spunding valve itself.

Thanks! This is a cool idea and never thought of using one.

I connect my unmodified corny to the filter by a hose and keg quick connect just like you would hook up a CO2 tank. There are concerns about clogging the tiny poppet but I have't yet had this happen. My filter housing has 1/4" FNPT so I use a 1/4" NPT to MFl on both ends. Although not necessary, inside I have a 3/4" PVC pipe in place of a filter just to make sure it fills from the bottom up (it just slides on). Gas flows through the filter housing backwards; gas/fluid moves from the keg down the PVC pipe (OUT side of the filter housing) and out the spunding valve (IN side of the filter housing). Recommend you get a clear body filter housing so you can be sure it does not overflow, can be found online for <$20.

Other notes after trying both methods:
Cost of a spare keg $35-$50; cost of the filter housing and fittings $15-$25.
A spare keg is superior to this set up in performance due to its larger size, stability, and stainless construction.
Filter Housing is easier and quicker to clean and takes up much less space in your fermentation chamber.
Filter Housing clear body allows you to gauge on how much overflow you are getting.
Plastic FNPT fittings suck; if you strip them you will ruin the filter housing.
 
I think I have a couple of pictures on my link when I did it and successfully, 10 drops, and 10.5 psi.

Thanks for this; I have been trying to dial this in for several brews now unsuccessfully so I started doing 4 gallon batches. Tried 12 drops with 5psi and nearly filled my little housing up.
Brewed yesterday and filled all the way up; did 14 drops and 5psi.
If it hasn't taken off by time I get home this afternoon I will add more O2 until it gets to 10psi.
 
Thanks for this; I have been trying to dial this in for several brews now unsuccessfully so I started doing 4 gallon batches. Tried 12 drops with 5psi and nearly filled my little housing up.
Brewed yesterday and filled all the way up; did 14 drops and 5psi.
If it hasn't taken off by time I get home this afternoon I will add more O2 until it gets to 10psi.

How did your primary fermentation go using your corny? Did you fill it all the way up and did you get any blow off?

I had a reason to know this week how much volume was at the top seam of my corny, it came to 1 pint short of 5 gallons (like in the older photo of mine shown below, this volume was right at the seam). I added the last pint, and it came to the ridge where it starts to make its curve up.



10/23/11 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr
 
I filled it to the seam, used 14 drops of fermcap, fermented at 68F, pre-pressured with O2 (not CO2) to 10psi.
Primary completed in under 1 week, less than 1/2" of fluid in my little filter housing. I wasn't home toward the end of fermentation to crank up the pressure but I am very impressed with the low blowoff.
I was afraid that starting at 10psi would affect my fermentation negatively but everything preformed normally (although I haven't tasted the beer yet). I will likely implement this into my technique from here on out.
 
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