Outside of the Box Sparging Process: Your Thoughts?

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ultravista

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"Sparging is trickling water through the grain to extract sugars from the grain. This is a delicate step, as the wrong temperature or pH will extract tannins from the chaff (grain husks) as well, resulting in a bitter brew. Typically, 50% more water is used for sparging than was originally used for mashing. Sparging is typically conducted in a lauter tun."

The purpose of sparging is to pull the sugars off the mashed grains, and efficiency of the wort is influenced by the sparging process, right? Optimal sparging extracts the most sugar from the mashed grains.

We know that tanins are extracted at or beyond 170 degrees (f), not by squeezing or disturbing the grains during the sparge process. Correct?

Thinking outside of the box and foregoing traditional methods; what about dumping the grains (post mash) into the sparging vessel and allow the grains to move freely in the (appropriate volume) sparge water. Good stirring will "wash the hulls" and pull off the sugars. With a good post-sparge filtering process, the runnings should run clear.

As long as the sparge water volume is accurate and the runnings are filters (post-sparge), wouldn't this process produce greater efficiency?
 
"Sparging is trickling water through the grain to extract sugars from the grain. This is a delicate step, as the wrong temperature or pH will extract tannins from the chaff (grain husks) as well, resulting in a bitter brew. Typically, 50% more water is used for sparging than was originally used for mashing. Sparging is typically conducted in a lauter tun."

The purpose of sparging is to pull the sugars off the mashed grains, and efficiency of the wort is influenced by the sparging process, right? Optimal sparging extracts the most sugar from the mashed grains.

We know that tanins are extracted at or beyond 170 degrees (f), not by squeezing or disturbing the grains during the sparge process. Correct?

Thinking outside of the box and foregoing traditional methods; what about dumping the grains (post mash) into the sparging vessel and allow the grains to move freely in the (appropriate volume) sparge water. Good stirring will "wash the hulls" and pull off the sugars. With a good post-sparge filtering process, the runnings should run clear.

As long as the sparge water volume is accurate and the runnings are filters (post-sparge), wouldn't this process produce greater efficiency?

How would that be different than a regular "batch sparge" technique? You add the sparge water to your MLT with the grain, and stir like it's your job. The grains are free flowing, and stirred up well. Then, vorlauf and drain.

That sounds like you're talking about, except you are planning to use a separate lauter tun.
 
I mash in my brew kettle and fly sparge in a separate lauter tun. You can avoid heavy lifting with a ladle.
 
Sound like you're talking about no-sparge except you're transfering to a second vessel. If your mash tun is large enough to hold the full volume there would be no need to transfer and you'd get the same result.

As described by John Palmer in his BYO article “Skip the Sparge” (May-June 2003), a no sparge brew has the entire volume of “sparge” water added to the mash and stirred in before any runoff has taken place. Even though additional water has been added, since it’s been added to the mash before runoff has begun, we can more properly think of it as a mash infusion, rather than a sparge addition...hence the name “no-sparge”.
 
I guess this would be a batch sparge. I plan on following Deathbrewers all grain stove top to brew Yoopers Dead Guy clone. Instead of dunking / tea-bagging the post-mashed grains, I thought of this process to improve efficiency.

Instead of dunking the compacted bag for 10 minutes, opting instead to allow the grains to circulate freely in the sparge water, should improve the process.

Am I on the right track here?
 
It will work, but you may not be able to beat other processes efficiencies. Try it out, and let us know your results.
 
I guess this would be a batch sparge. I plan on following Deathbrewers all grain stove top to brew Yoopers Dead Guy clone. Instead of dunking / tea-bagging the post-mashed grains, I thought of this process to improve efficiency.

Instead of dunking the compacted bag for 10 minutes, opting instead to allow the grains to circulate freely in the sparge water, should improve the process.

Am I on the right track here?

Well, if you want to use a bag, that's fine. But you're right- the key is to have the grain "free-flowing". So, maybe use three bags instead of one, for example, to keep the grain bed "fluid". There's nothing magical about using a bag or not- the key will come in making sure the grain is "loose".
 
Yooper, I meant use the bag for the mashing process, to keep the wort clear. Moving onto the sparge process (ala DeathBrewer), 10 minutes in a sparge pot, dunking / tea bagging will be replaced with - dumping the grains, stiring & grain movement for the duration of the sparge process, then draining.

In other words, just taking the grains out of the bag instead of leaving them bagged.

I use a fine mesh coffee filter, it will capture all particulates before transferring into the 'mashed' wort. I may pre (in the tun), and post (out of the valve) filter if I go this route.

My main concern is making a "let's see if this works" kind of mistake with my first all grain batch. The process seems simple enough, given you hit your volume, temperatures, and times.

Do you know why / how one sparging process improves efficiency over another? Meaning, why would FLY vs. Batch, vs. any other sparging method prove superior over another.

Since tanins are not extracted by over-washing (when temp is optimal), why not agitate the grains to pull the sugars off versus a slow 60 or 90 minute trickle sparge? My understanding to slow-as-you-go method will give clear runnings, but if you filter, is it necessary?
 
This is your first AG batch?

Try something that you know works first, THEN add variables.


Also trying to filter out all of your grain by sticking a coffee filter on the outlet is likely to end up with either a clogged filter or extremely slow drain.
 
Yes, I know what you meant.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't see the advantage of removing the bag. If the grain is in the bag "loose", there won't be any reason to expect higher efficiency or better lautering from opening the bag.

Non-BIAB brewers have the grain "loose" in the MLT all the time, and the false bottom is what allows the lautering.
 
you're way over thinking this
if you never did an all grain batch don't even worry about stuff like pH, or tannins
I don't know Deathbrewers all grain stove top method is but if I had no mash tun and two pots and a grain bag this is what I would do

put the crushed grain in the bag put bag in pot of water and mash them
pull the bag out of the pot let it drain
put the bag in the sparge water pot and stir it around dunk it up and down or whatever you can do to rinse the grains
pull the bag out of the water
let it drain, squeeze or don't
combine the two pots
and boil away
 
Agree.

You're mashing the grain in a bag to be able to separate the wort from grain easily. Now you want to pour the grain out into another body of water and make it difficult to do the separation the second time? Ass backwards.
 
Good points, thanks everyone for weighing-in.

I completely missed the fact that the grain bag will be big enough to allow the grains to settle and disperse during the sparge. I'm doing 5 gallon batches.

Yeah, I am going from extract to all grain in one step, and only after my second brew. The first was 10 years ago, the second was in November.

The AG process doesn't seem all that complicated, or is it?
 
This soumds like a pain in the keester. Whats wrong with just doing it the way its been done billions of times before? If you want to invent something, formulate a recipe. Seems much easier
 
Good points, thanks everyone for weighing-in.

I completely missed the fact that the grain bag will be big enough to allow the grains to settle and disperse during the sparge. I'm doing 5 gallon batches.

Yeah, I am going from extract to all grain in one step, and only after my second brew. The first was 10 years ago, the second was in November.

The AG process doesn't seem all that complicated, or is it?

No, it's pretty simple actually. You can easily do it, just by going step by step. And stop thinking so much! Even goofballs like me can make beer- it ain't rocket surgery you know! :D
 
Yooper said:
No, it's pretty simple actually. You can easily do it, just by going step by step. And stop thinking so much! Even goofballs like me can make beer- it ain't rocket surgery you know! :D

Its not brain science either
 
Yooper, I meant use the bag for the mashing process, to keep the wort clear. Moving onto the sparge process (ala DeathBrewer), 10 minutes in a sparge pot, dunking / tea bagging will be replaced with - dumping the grains, stiring & grain movement for the duration of the sparge process, then draining.

In other words, just taking the grains out of the bag instead of leaving them bagged.

I use a fine mesh coffee filter, it will capture all particulates before transferring into the 'mashed' wort. I may pre (in the tun), and post (out of the valve) filter if I go this route.

My main concern is making a "let's see if this works" kind of mistake with my first all grain batch. The process seems simple enough, given you hit your volume, temperatures, and times.

Do you know why / how one sparging process improves efficiency over another? Meaning, why would FLY vs. Batch, vs. any other sparging method prove superior over another.

Since tanins are not extracted by over-washing (when temp is optimal), why not agitate the grains to pull the sugars off versus a slow 60 or 90 minute trickle sparge? My understanding to slow-as-you-go method will give clear runnings, but if you filter, is it necessary?
Just dunk the bag into the sparge pot, open the top and clip it to the sides/handles, stir through the open bag top. then pull up the bag and brew on!
 
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