Consecration kit from MoreBeer

Jolly Pumpkin dregs and/or patience for the win.

Cheers!

Any suggestions from anyone on a bottling yeast?


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I'm not 100% sure about this, but from what I remember Vinnie uses RP-15 (Rockpile wine yeast).

http://morewinemaking.com/products/dry-wine-yeast-rp15-rockpile.html

For 5 gallons, I would recommend using 8g of yeast. Make sure to re-hydrate the yeast first to get them as healthy as possible prior to pitching into the high ABV%. For a guide on re-hydrating wine yeast, click here.

Cheers!

Jipper said:

I'm not 100% sure about this, but from what I remember Vinnie uses RP-15 (Rockpile wine yeast).

http://morewinemaking.com/products/dry-wine-yeast-rp15-rockpile.html

For 5 gallons, I would recommend using 8g of yeast. Make sure to re-hydrate the yeast first to get them as healthy as possible prior to pitching into the high ABV%. For a guide on re-hydrating wine yeast, click here.

Cheers!

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I could be wrong, but that seems like a lot of yeast for a sour. I think I read it on old sock's blog (madfermentationist.com) that the Brett will start consuming the yeast and you could end up with bottle bombs. I believe he recommended 1-2 grams per 5 gal. Just a heads up...





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Brett is yeast

mr_samsonite said:

From what I understand the only beer they bottle with bugs is Supplication, the rest just get WLP530 or similar at bottling. Not to say you won't pick up a few bugs from it but I pitched some Supplication dregs a few months ago and my Consecration clone finally took a turn toward sour.

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Supplication is not the only Russian River beer bottled with bugs, they use a centrifuge to remove some yeast but there are viable bugs in a handful of their beers. Including but not limited to Supplication, Consecration, Temptation, Beatification, Sanctification. One thing to keep in mind though, as Jipper referred to above, is they re-yeast at bottling with Rockpile wine yeast to ensure carbonation. The wine yeast is able to withstand the low PH of the sour beer that an ale strain may not be able to.

Sleepyemt said:

I could be wrong, but that seems like a lot of yeast for a sour. I think I read it on old sock's blog (madfermentationist.com) that the Brett will start consuming the yeast and you could end up with bottle bombs. I believe he recommended 1-2 grams per 5 gal. Just a heads up...

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In my experience, pitching a little extra wine yeast did not result in bottle bombs, assuming youre adding it to a sufficiently dry stable FG sour beer you should be fine. The point of the wine yeast is really only to ferment the priming solution and ensure carbonation. If your beer has alot of remaining sugars from fermentation then yea you run a risk, in that case just wait for the beer to dry out before bottling.

Would it be possible to not reyeast at bottling and wait a while longer? If it is, does anyone have estimates on how much longer?

Finally emptied the keg!

hllywd said:

Finally emptied the keg!

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I'll PM you my address if you need a hand with those!!!

passedpawn said:

Sorry if I repeat what others have said here...

Vinnie does an initial fermentation with WL Abbey Ale Yeast. He then removes that yeast (cold crash), pitches brett and adds the fruit, and lets it sit at 60F for 2+ months. Then, more brett and bacteria are added and left for another 3-ish months in the cab barrels. Then, bottled with the wine yeast and another 2 months of aging before sale.

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What temp does it sit in the barrels at (wine cave/storage temp of 55 or higher like some Belgians in the 68F range)?

I apologize if this question has been answered already - I tried to search the thread and came up with nothing.

I got the kit from Morebeer yesterday and the instructions only mention using Abbey Ale yeast for primary, then adding Brettanomyces after some time. So I got the only Brettanomyces they had, Claussenii. Then, I looked on the Morebeer website, and it suggests pitching the Roselaire blend for the Lactobacillus / Pediococcus element.

Is just pitching Brett C in secondary going to get an authentic taste? From having consumed the real stuff many times, I feel like the lacto/pedio element is important, but I don't know if the chopped up barrels are going to provide that somehow or if my taste is wrong.

dtwhite said:

I apologize if this question has been answered already - I tried to search the thread and came up with nothing.

I got the kit from Morebeer yesterday and the instructions only mention using Abbey Ale yeast for primary, then adding Brettanomyces after some time. So I got the only Brettanomyces they had, Claussenii. Then, I looked on the Morebeer website, and it suggests pitching the Roselaire blend for the Lactobacillus / Pediococcus element.

Is just pitching Brett C in secondary going to get an authentic taste? From having consumed the real stuff many times, I feel like the lacto/pedio element is important, but I don't know if the chopped up barrels are going to provide that somehow or if my taste is wrong.

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Yeah, the instructions aren't entirely clear on that point. You will need lacto/pedio in secondary. It won't develop the sourness you're shooting for without them. I got these notes from MoreBeer - I think on the web site? ...


Note the timing. The suggestion is to pitch Brett when you first rack to secondary. Then after several weeks, pitch lacto/pedio. If you use Roeselare, you'll also get a couple more Brett strains at this point. Then when your satisfied with the sourness (4 -12 months), you add the oak until you get enough oak character.

Definitely post how the Brett C works when you're done!

I split my batch into two.
I followed the Vinnie method outlined in the previous post for half, and the other half I pitched Roeselare from the start. I have also added dregs from a few sour beers along the way to this second half fermented with the Roeselare. I just added my Oak today. Brewed last November so its about 5 months old right now. Could never figure out when to switch over to solid bung, so I did that today. Heh, I'm going to need a corkscrew or something to remove one that slipped into the neck! Using the plastic better bottles. Got a nice set of four year-beers going that I'm going to hopefully enjoy by Christmas, with a pair of KBS clone (half soured as well) carboys to keep these Consecration style beers company.

Anyone know what the bottling yeast "Rockpile" is or where to get some? Barring any advice, I may simply use the CBC-1 yeast by Lallemand(?) I think.

TD

TrickyDick said:

I split my batch into two.
I followed the Vinnie method outlined in the previous post for half, and the other half I pitched Roeselare from the start. I have also added dregs from a few sour beers along the way to this second half fermented with the Roeselare. I just added my Oak today. Brewed last November so its about 5 months old right now. Could never figure out when to switch over to solid bung, so I did that today. Heh, I'm going to need a corkscrew or something to remove one that slipped into the neck! Using the plastic better bottles. Got a nice set of four year-beers going that I'm going to hopefully enjoy by Christmas, with a pair of KBS clone (half soured as well) carboys to keep these Consecration style beers company.

Anyone know what the bottling yeast "Rockpile" is or where to get some? Barring any advice, I may simply use the CBC-1 yeast by Lallemand(?) I think.

TD

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I like your a/b experiment ideas. Rockpile refers to this wine yeast...
http://morebeer.com/products/dry-wine-yeast-rp15-rockpile.html

Nesto said:

Yeah, the instructions aren't entirely clear on that point. You will need lacto/pedio in secondary. It won't develop the sourness you're shooting for without them. I got these notes from MoreBeer - I think on the web site? ...

Vinnie recommends fermenting down to around a 1.016-1.018 with Abbey Ale yeast. He recommends the temperature to be 72°F during the first few days of fermentation, and then lets it free rise to 76°F until the target gravity of 1.016 is reached.

After hitting this target gravity, he'll transfer to barrels to start the aging and souring process (a secondary fermenter will be necessary - a barrel would be preferred!) Currants and Brettanomyces are added at this point.

After approximately 7-8 weeks, you'll want to add your Lactobacillus and Pediococcus. To kill two birds with one stone, we recommend pitching Roeselare (WY3763) which contains both bacterium.​

Note the timing. The suggestion is to pitch Brett when you first rack to secondary. Then after several weeks, pitch lacto/pedio. If you use Roeselare, you'll also get a couple more Brett strains at this point. Then when your satisfied with the sourness (4 -12 months), you add the oak until you get enough oak character.

Definitely post how the Brett C works when you're done!

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Thanks. I think I'm going to add the Roselaire as well as the Brett C (timed appropriately) - I emailed MoreBeer and they basically confirmed what you said. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I don't think the paper instructions mention anything about lacto/pedio. I figured it was possible that the barrel hunks still had bugs in them. I'm used to brewing beers that take 3 weeks maximum to be done... man this is going to take a lot of patience.

YUM! Consecration!!!!

How much priming sugar do most folks add to a 5 gallon batch?


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After initial fermentation with the Abbey Ale and then transferring to a different carboy and adding the Brett and currants, directions say to wait 7-8 weeks before adding Lacto and Peddio (or Roselare blend). Are you guys transferring again to a new carboy before pitching the Roselare? Mostly I'm wondering if you're leaving the beer on the currants beyond 8 weeks or removing the beer from the currants (or somehow removing currants from the beer).


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I plan to simply at the Roeselare to the carboy - leaving the currants in there. I will let the temp rise to 68F. Next I need to remind myself when to add the oak - probably going to add it soon after the Roeselare.

Mine is coming up on 18 months old this month 7 months on currents that have all dropped to the bottom, probably time to package. Its tucked in a dark corner of my basement and with all the other projects I have going right now I actually kind of forgot about it until I was moving things around this weekend.

Kershner_Ale said:

After initial fermentation with the Abbey Ale and then transferring to a different carboy and adding the Brett and currants, directions say to wait 7-8 weeks before adding Lacto and Peddio (or Roselare blend). Are you guys transferring again to a new carboy before pitching the Roselare? Mostly I'm wondering if you're leaving the beer on the currants beyond 8 weeks or removing the beer from the currants (or somehow removing currants from the beer).


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My Abbey Ale ferment went off pretty fast. Made an overnight starter with the currants, a quart of starter wort, and a package of Roselare then racked the 1.012 beer onto that after it had been in primary for about 4 days IIRC. My finished beer looks, and tastes like Consecration, but is not as tart in a side by side comparison with the real thing after about a year and a half since brew day. I bottled it in corkable bottles from a keg just a couple months ago. It was on the currants the entire time with the Roselare until kegging back around the first of the year. I had the oak in it for about the last two months before kegging. I would definately not wait 7 or 8 weeks to add the bugs.

Coff said:

Mine is coming up on 18 months old this month 7 months on currents that have all dropped to the bottom, probably time to package. Its tucked in a dark corner of my basement and with all the other projects I have going right now I actually kind of forgot about it until I was moving things around this weekend.

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It was a good idea to forget this one Coff! It paid off. Do you have your oak in it yet? I had mine in for about the last 2 months before I kegged. I kept the oak from my first batch, and intend to add that at the same time as the bugs for the second batch. It should be well inoculated!

Just added the oak this weekend. I will likely give it at least a month with it before I package.

hllywd said:

My Abbey Ale ferment went off pretty fast. Made an overnight starter with the currants, a quart of starter wort, and a package of Roselare then racked the 1.012 beer onto that after it had been in primary for about 4 days IIRC. My finished beer looks, and tastes like Consecration, but is not as tart in a side by side comparison with the real thing after about a year and a half since brew day. I bottled it in corkable bottles from a keg just a couple months ago. It was on the currants the entire time with the Roselare until kegging back around the first of the year. I had the oak in it for about the last two months before kegging. I would definately not wait 7 or 8 weeks to add the bugs.

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Those 7-8 weeks are to allow the Brett bugs that you just added to get a good start (also why you drop to 60 degrees during that time). If you add the Roeselare too early the other bugs will overtake the Brett.

I added Brett and currants after 4 weeks of belgian yeast (down to 1.016). After 8 weeks on Brett (down to 1.007-9) dumped roselaere blend into it. Come around after 7 months on roselaere, I dumped Cabernet soaked Oakes cubes in. (Cubes were vacuum sealed with the cab for over 6 months). I sorta just let it go since. The oak has been in it for 6 months- roselaere for 13 months, Brett & currants for 15 months, and it's been 16 months since initial ferment. Smells great. Just been too lazy to bottle. I'm not concerned with the length on the oak because I had the cubes soaking in Cabernet for a long time........I hope!

Anyone know the carbonation level for this? I've never had it before so I can't guess. Plus I've seen people review this by saying carbonation was lively and sprite, medium, and also on the low end?????? I doubt RR quality control is such that they can't nail down a consistent level. But reviews are ALL OVER THE PLACE with the level of carbonation. I know the acidic level may give it a seemingly higher feel of CO2 than it actually has. I was assuming around 2.3-2.4 vol CO2, but I'd rather not assume

mhot55 said:

I added Brett and currants after 4 weeks of belgian yeast (down to 1.016). After 8 weeks on Brett (down to 1.007-9) dumped roselaere blend into it. Come around after 7 months on roselaere, I dumped Cabernet soaked Oakes cubes in. (Cubes were vacuum sealed with the cab for over 6 months). I sorta just let it go since. The oak has been in it for 6 months- roselaere for 13 months, Brett & currants for 15 months, and it's been 16 months since initial ferment. Smells great. Just been too lazy to bottle. I'm not concerned with the length on the oak because I had the cubes soaking in Cabernet for a long time........I hope!

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How long after adding the roeselare did you start getting hints of sour? I've basically followed your steps up to adding the roeselare. It's been 4.5 months and no sourness is detectable.

Edit: nevermind... just took a sample, and there it is! Couldn't detect any when I last checked 3 weeks ago.

I haven't tasted mine yet. Brewed in November. I pitched half with roeselare. The currants started falling out in the last month. The other half I did the Vinnie way, and the currants have also started falling, but still much more in that. I also added some oak soaked with cab and heat cycled in microwave. I found out my oak was unused, new stave segments, so I really hope its not too overpowering. Hopefully boiling in water and then micro-zapping in a few fingers of Cabernet wine a few times to heat and cool will zap some of the big oak you'd expect from unused wood.

I am curious though about a pellicle. I have yet to see one in either fermenter. The one I pitched with roeselare from day one had some funk on the top of the currants, but I no longer see that.

TD


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is anyone punching down the currants (much like grapes in wine making)?

Not that anyone has mentioned in the thread so far. I often hear this term "punch down". I envision a potato masher being shoved into the fermentation vessel. In my case it's a plastic carboy so it wouldn't fit through the neck. What does this mean exactly?

TD


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TrickyDick said:

I am curious though about a pellicle. I have yet to see one in either fermenter. The one I pitched with roeselare from day one had some funk on the top of the currants, but I no longer see that.

TD


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I'm almost four months since pitching the Roselare blend in mine and no pellicle has formed. Word I received was don't worry about it, one May not form at all. It's more a factor of how much O2 is getting into your fermenter.



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FredTheNuke said:

is anyone punching down the currants (much like grapes in wine making)?

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The currants in mine eventually dropped to the bottom on their own, if thats what youre worried about. I dont see a need to press them while in the beer if thats what youre going for.

Punching down is the process of sinking the solid currants/grapes/etc back into the liquid so no part dries out and all parts ferment instead of floating in air. I know in wine making it is a daily chore early on in the must making. Coff answered my primary question - eventually they will sink. if the top dries a bit that is ok - what is it gonna do grow bacteria or something? LOL

Wikipedia definition:

Throughout the fermentation process, carbon dioxide is released as a byproduct of the conversion of sugar into alcohol. The carbon dioxide seeks to escape from the must by rising to the top of the mixture, pushing the grape skins and other materials to the top as well. This forms what is known as a cap that is visible on top of the fermentation vessel. At this point, a very limited amount of the must comes into contact with the skins, and winemakers seek to correct this by pushing down the cap (either with equipment or the traditional method of treading with their feet) or by pumping wine out from under and over onto the cap. This process of "pumping over" or "punching down" the cap is done often throughout the fermentation process, depending on the extent of maceration the winemaker desires.[1] An efficient and modern method of maceration is the "pneumatage process" in which compressed air or gas is sequentially injected into the juice. The bubble created during the pneumatage process uses gravity and the weight of the juice to circulate the wine juice with the cap of skins and grape solids allowing for greater extraction of aroma, coloring agents and tannins to diffuse into the wine juice ("must").

Just got this kit today (extract) and I'm planning on brewing this weekend. There's a pound of corn sugar and a pound of candi syrup but no info as to when to add durign the boil... what did everyone else do?

I added mine after initial fermentation. If you do that, be prepared for fermentation to kick up again.

The_Nid_Hog said:

I added mine after initial fermentation. If you do that, be prepared for fermentation to kick up again.

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Interesting, I assume you mean the corn sugar, not the candi syrup... More Beer responded to an email askign the same question and said in the boil with the extract. When you say after initial fermentation do you mean as you racked to secondary and pitched the brett, or between fermentation slowing down and your rack to secondary? Any benefit you see either way? I've never used corn sugar before apart from bottling.

I love more beer, but I loathe their kit instructions. So stupid that they aren't particular to each kit.

Anyway, the OG for that beer is only supposed to be 1.076 or so. As long as you're using a starter and you aerate the wort I would just put it all in the boil. Probably @ 1-2 mins left.

That's just my personal opinion. I know there are better/different ways to do it, but I regularly pitch into wort way higher than 1.080 and the yeast has no trouble as long as I have the appropriate count.

ruger988 said:

Interesting, I assume you mean the corn sugar, not the candi syrup... More Beer responded to an email askign the same question and said in the boil with the extract. When you say after initial fermentation do you mean as you racked to secondary and pitched the brett, or between fermentation slowing down and your rack to secondary? Any benefit you see either way? I've never used corn sugar before apart from bottling.

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I added the candi syrup (boiled in some water then cooled to fermentation temperature) to primary after initial fermentation slowed. I had read about that as a possible way to introduce the sugar in a Belgian, but I think it would be fine to put it in at the end of the boil too.

After reading a lot of Old Sock/The Mad Fermentationist/Mike's posts about it, I didn't wait to pitch the brett and the bugs in secondary. I introduced them all in primary, right off the bat. I eventually racked it over into secondary onto the currants. The idea is that it will more closely match the sourness of Consecration, even if it doesn't follow the process exactly.

The_Nid_Hog said:

I added the candi syrup (boiled in some water then cooled to fermentation temperature) to primary after initial fermentation slowed. I had read about that as a possible way to introduce the sugar in a Belgian, but I think it would be fine to put it in at the end of the boil too.

After reading a lot of Old Sock/The Mad Fermentationist/Mike's posts about it, I didn't wait to pitch the brett and the bugs in secondary. I introduced them all in primary, right off the bat. I eventually racked it over into secondary onto the currants. The idea is that it will more closely match the sourness of Consecration, even if it doesn't follow the process exactly.

Click to expand...

So did you only use the Brett/Roeselare? Pitched them both at the beginning of primary?

ruger988 said:

So did you only use the Brett/Roeselare? Pitched them both at the beginning of primary?

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No, I used separate cultures. I don't have my notebook handy but, as I recall, I used a Wyeast Abbey and Brett, and bugs from White Labs. I had a version of the Bruery's Tart of Darkness going with Roeselare so I thought I'd try something different. Pitched 'em all at the beginning.