Weihenstephan...back to the drawing board!

Baron von BeeGee said:

Clearly a bug. I would add them in the extras section, but I don't always look at that. Not that I'd forget them, anyways.

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When do you add them to the mash? I figure that an addition at mash-out would be the best.

Kai

I go ahead and add them at dough-in so they are mixed in well. The way wheat can set up like concrete leads me to believe it could require some reasonable stirring to get them mixed in at mash-out, though if you're decocting to mash-out temp that may be academic.

El Pistolero said:

I guess Temple of Doom wasn't bad.

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You can't be serious?! That's the only one of the Indy trilogy that I will NOT watch. I have the boxed DVD set, and I haven't even taken the shrink wrap off T.o.D.

-walker

Well, my results are in. Yesterday I compared the Hefe that I made according to this thread to Weihenstephan Hefe Weissbier and this is what I found:

aroma: both are pretty close. Mine has a little more of the phenolic character with a little more funk going on in the background. I believe that this can be attributed to fact that mine was much younger and I couldn't keep the fermentation temps as constant as I would have liked them to be. A few times it went above 70F, where more esters are produced.

color: Color is almost a match. The Weihenstephan is a tad darker with a little more redness in its hue. I believe that that can be fixed by boiling the 1st decoction for 20 instead of 10 min. Yes, some Munich or Melanodin could do the same, but why bother, if I decoct this beer anyway

carbonation: The Weihenstephan has much more. I was shooting for about 7g CO2/L (Volumes ??). Next time I will shoot for 8-9g CO2/L. I just have to make sure I keep enough Speise or add some more DME.

head retention: Mine is actually pretty comparable. If I use a slow pour, even the Weihenstephan will not have a stable head. You need to shake up the last 1-2oz in the bottle to get the yeast and set this foam on top of the beer. The foam will be fairly stable, but I notices that mine leaves powdery looking residue on the walls of the glass. I assume that is is the yeast and I may actually try bottling with lager yeast next time. Since I always have some lager yeast at hand and I'm using Kraeusen to prime this beer, it would not be an addition of complexity for me.

taste: Mine has a more acidic taste than the Weihenstephan. And this is the only thing that really bothers me on this batch. Othewise it would have been perfect for the 1st Hefe. I hope I can blame this on the fact that I added 1.75 oz of acid malt after the Ferulic acid rest as I was convinced that the mash needed it. When I checked the PH (with paper) during the acid rest it seemed a little on the high side. I prepared for adding 3.5 oz of acid malt. But at the end of the acid rest the PH looked normal (I guess that's why it is called acid rest) but I added 1.75 oz of the acid malt anyway. I'm not sure if this made a difference in the taste. But I assume that with an infection, it would get more sour over time. The Weihenstephan also has a small hint of maltiness that I couldn't detect as much in mine. I hope that the longer decoction will take care of this as well

FG: mine is at 2.5*P (+/- 0.25) and Weihenstephan is at 2.5* (+/- 0.25). I'm pretty proud of this result and hope that I can repeat this attenuation.

Kai

Kaiser said:

taste: Mine has a more acidic taste than the Weihenstephan. And this is the only thing that really bothers me on this batch. Othewise it would have been perfect for the 1st Hefe. I hope I can blame this on the fact that I added 1.75 oz of acid malt after the Ferulic acid rest as I was convinced that the mash needed it.

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I would almost bet adding the acid malt was unnecessary given the acid rest. I didn't add any acid malt to my 2.0, and it is significantly more acidic/sour than 1.0.

Baron von BeeGee said:

I would almost bet adding the acid malt was unnecessary given the acid rest. I didn't add any acid malt to my 2.0, and it is significantly more acidic/sour than 1.0.

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Yes that's what I figured too. I definately was overeager in adding it in this case .

But the the ferulic acid rest should have brought the mash to the regular mash PH. This is what I saw when testing with the paper. And most of this acid should have been converted to 4VG by the yeast. I'm not sure if that would get rid of the acidity as well, or if there is another acid that is procuced as a byproduct of this conversion.

Kai

Definitely getting in the deep end of the pool for me, but I only know that ferulic acid is a precursor for 4VG...does that mean it is automatically converted to 4VG? Your theory of other types of acids being created sounds reasonable, as well.

As far as the test strips, I tried one during the acid mash and only concluded that I still can't read them. I might try the aquarium test solution if I can remember to buy some.

Okay guys, I made the Baron's wheat beer and this is how it went...

My acid rest came in a little high at 113F instead of 111F, But I'm not worried about that at all. I held it for 30min as per instructions.
The dreaded protien rest (Kaiser ) was perfect at 122F for 40 min, during which time I pulled my first decoction. I pulled a 4 quart thickie and boiled it for 35 minutes, and added it back to hit my 153F sacc. rest. the only problem was, my temp stabilized at 134F after adding the decoction back into the mash. WTF? I thought. I ran back and checked my notes and it turns out I should have pulled an 8 quart thickie. Oh well, I got it there after two more thin decoc's and mashed for 30 minutes. After that, I did a successful conversion test and pulled another thin decoc and mashed out.
Sparging was a bit of PITA having 50% wheat in the mash. I was unable to locate any rice hulls, and under advisement decided to go without. The runoff never really stopped but it was really slow for the first batch, the second was nice and speedy.
On to the boil and everything else was according to plan. I built a new CFC, and it worked awesome (my old one was 1/4" and took 2 hours to drain the kettle!, the new one is 3/8") I was 2 points low on my OG, but I haven't noticed any tears coming from my eyes so that must be okay too.
I pitched a wyeast 3333 1 quart starter and it's in the books now!

Special thanks to BvBG and my apprentice, BigT.

PS I don't think I'll be doing (as it turned out) quadruple decoctions every time, but I'm certainly not afraid of them!

Wicked. I think that's still within acid rest limits, but I'd have to check. You should be getting some pretty nice aromas from the airlock soon. Now, book a ticket for a month from now so we can do a side-by-side comparison of the three wheats.

My primary is currently at 63F, which is on the bottom edge of the wy3333 strain's limit. How will that affect the ester production? Should I raise it up a bit?

In my experience with 3068 (haven't tried 3333 yet), ester production will be quite low to nil, but you'll get some phenols (cloves, spices). I'd shoot for the upper 60's if it's possible because you'll get more esters and phenols, but not too much of the esters (banana-y). But the 3333 may behave differently than the 3068.

Chairman Cheyco said:

My primary is currently at 63F, which is on the bottom edge of the wy3333 strain's limit. How will that affect the ester production? Should I raise it up a bit?

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I did a hefe with 3333, at about 67-69, and I think it came out a little too estery. (I would describe the esters from this strain as somewhat medicinal in flavor). I think your range should be OK, if a little slow.

3333 does not produce much banana or clove flavor.

cweston said:

(I would describe the esters from this strain as somewhat medicinal in flavor).

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That sounds more phenolic to me which could hopefully be balanced with more esters. However, checking the web it seems that 3333 has a significantly different profile than the 3068 or other Hefe yeasts.

Thanks guys, I think I'll leave it where were it is for now and see what it does as changing it now won't tell me anything in the final product. I can always change it for the next one.

Well, I got Hefe2.0 bottled tonight after two weeks in the secondary. I had intended to bottle after one week, but got lazy. It actually settled a bit in the second week, as well, so it's probably a good thing overall.

Sampling of this one makes me happy...tastes like I expect it to at this point. Nice phenolic character, good acidity, color looks good, too, but we'll see what it looks like in a glass in a few weeks. Hopefully it carbs soon!

I racked mine tonight after two weeks in pirmary. It tastes awesome! Unfortunately, it's going to have to sit in secondary for 5 weeks. Do you guts think this prolonged period will screw-up the flavor? I should be able to hold it around 55-60F for the entire secondary...

Chairman Cheyco said:

I racked mine tonight after two weeks in pirmary. It tastes awesome! Unfortunately, it's going to have to sit in secondary for 5 weeks. Do you guts think this prolonged period will screw-up the flavor? I should be able to hold it around 55-60F for the entire secondary...

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I think it will only get better, provided you didn't rack over too much yeast with it. If you have a ton of yeast with it the prolonged exposure might create some autolysis but I'm betting that after 5 weeks, that beer is going to be more than you ever expected. :rockin:

Bitchin, yo.

:rockin:

PS Dude, we should get our avatars together sometime...

Believe it or not, my Hefe1.0 spent almost 5 weeks in the secondary and in a 45-50F garage, at that. It was fine other than the fact I had overhopped it which had nothing to do with the secondary. It never completely cleared, either, which just goes to show how persistent those haze-inducing wheat proteins are.

The only thing I would suggest is seeing if you can detect any reduction in the phenolic/estery character by the time you bottle. Mainly because I'm curious. I don't think you'll notice anything.

My Hefe 2.0 is a success by my calculations! Cracked a few bottles with the Kaiser the other night and a few more tonight and I'm very happy with it. I need to do a side-by-side comparison with an actual Weihenstephan, however. The overly bitter taste is gone and I have the phenolic/estery character I want. I think the acid rest made a difference, but who knows.

[hidden message]Norah Jones, if you see this, you left your sweater at my house.[/hidden message]

Baron von BeeGee said:

6. Secondary no more than 1 week, if not skip it altogether.

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Just transferred after a week in primary. Bottle next weekend? I usually go two weeks in secondary, but that is with strong ales. This is my first wheat.

Ruy Lopez said:

Just transferred after a week in primary. Bottle next weekend? I usually go two weeks in secondary, but that is with strong ales. This is my first wheat.

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I'm actually now a fan of a week or two in the secondary for some bulk conditioning.

I am drinking my second all grain and first attempt at a wheat beer based on the recipe in this thread, and first try at decoction. I used WLP300 yeast, fermenting around 68 degrees. Not quite Weihenstephaner, but it's better than Erdinger

That looks amazing.

Baron von BeeGee said:

That looks amazing.

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I'll second that...WOW. I want one right now!!!!!!!!

I'm going to do it again this coming weekend, but I thought I may try adding the 1 oz of Hallertau Hersbrucker (only hop addition) as first wort hops rather than at the 60 minute mark of the boil. Anyone tried using first wort hops on a hefe, and if so, how were the results as opposed to just using them straight in the boil?

Buford said:

I am drinking my second all grain and first attempt at a wheat beer based on the recipe in this thread, and first try at decoction. I used WLP300 yeast, fermenting around 68 degrees. Not quite Weihenstephaner, but it's better than Erdinger

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How do you rate Weihenstephaner with Paulaner and Spaten???

I personally love Paulaner.

I've never tried either of those so I can't say.

I haven't had Weihenstephan yet but I have had Paulaner quite a few times. Paulaner is good - very flavorful, perhaps even slightly over the top? It's done well though; smooth and mostly balanced unlike a few micro versions that I think the brewers were trying too hard to impart flavor into the wheat beer (ie... Flying Dog In Heat Wheat) IMHO.

I am in love with Konig Ludwig Weissbier right now... I was just visiting Chicago and popped into Johnny's Kitchen and Tap in the Northbrook/Park Ridge area and they had it on tap. They even serve them in tall 20oz Konig Ludwig Weiss glasses (I was trying to buy a few from the owner but she wouldn't part with them).


Cheers!

I've never even heard of Konig Ludwig...I'll have to check it out. Reminds me, I need to start thinking about a Hefeweizen brewday...

Now you got me thinking about brewing up some Hefe as well, although I find it rather challenging to consider brewing one when we still have three feet of snow in the backyard.

Recently I came across some good information regarding brewing Bavarian Wheats. I'm going to make this a summer of wheats, homebrewed and over in Germany, and hopefully have some nice experiences that I can write up in a nice article about the style.

Kai

Y'all really should check out German Wheat Beer from the Classic Beer Styles series. Even at 15 years old, it is still an excellent source for information about German wheat styles.


TL

Those classic beer style books are a great read. I have the Porter, Alt, and Stout books, and refer back to them often. They are timeless, and filled with very useful information.

TexLaw said:

Y'all really should check out German Wheat Beer from the Classic Beer Styles series. Even at 15 years old, it is still an excellent source for information about German wheat styles.

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I have read that book and should read it again soon. But I feel that the subject may need some updated information. In particulat the usefulness of decoction has gotten some interesting recent studies.

Kai

Glibbidy said:

Those classic beer style books are a great read. I have the Porter, Alt, and Stout books, and refer back to them often. They are timeless, and filled with very useful information.

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I just bought the Smoked Beer book, and it's outstanding. I've heard, though, that a few of them (notable the Oktoberfest book) aren't very good. Maybe we should start a separate thread on this series.....

Just wanted to prost this thread as theres a lot of good info here.

My hefe is on day 3 of fermenting now. Used Wyeast 3068 and its around 66degrees. Planning on just leaving it in primary for 10 - 14 days and bottling. Brewing a Dunkel when I rack it for bottling and just dumping it on the yeast cake that same day.

the_bird said:

I just bought the Smoked Beer book, and it's outstanding. I've heard, though, that a few of them (notable the Oktoberfest book) aren't very good. Maybe we should start a separate thread on this series.....

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Just to keep this off topic for one more post, the Oktoberfest, Vienna, Marzen book is the only one in the series that I have ever heard anything bad about. All the others I can either rave about, first hand, or have heard good reviews. (The Smoked Beer one is great!)


TL

http://www.koenig-ludwig.com/klw/koenig_ludwig_en.asp

I came across it while stationed in Germany. On a weekend leave, I visited the castle and brewery - it was a great weekend! I was drinking the dunkel at the time and have always been looking for it here in the states with no luck until recently.

Cheers!

Kaiser and I relied pretty heavily on the CBS book on Hefeweizens when he was an NC resident and we were experimenting with brewing them. I'm probably going to try some modifications to this recipe this summer...something a little ruddier, maybe with a bit of Munich. I also didn't brew a Weizenbock this winter, and now I'm kind of regreting it