Making Traditional rice Wine. Cheap, Fun, and Different
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Still waiting for it to clear more before racking:
Looks like there is quite some air and oxygen inside. Doesn't it turn sour over time?
Made it only once before in the same container with half the rice/liquid and it didn't happen to me. Can't say for certain why, might end up happening this time, this is only my second batch of this stuff. It might if given enough time, but don't know how long that would take. I'll probably rack once, let it settle again, then bottle, by then I would be around day 90 overall.
I've read that others in this thread have seen souring long before the point I'm at, and from other reading in this thread I would suspect it is related to fermenting temp being too high, or that the higher the temp the higher the likelihood of souring. Lots of other possible variables too though, sanitization, ingredients, what yeast/mold was used, and/or its particular source, so I can't say for sure.
Thanks! This could help me with my gruit beers, which all turned sour. Never thought about temperature being a factor in there!
Stealthcruiser
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You've never attempted to control your ferm temps, start to finish?
Made the biggest difference in the world for my beers!
And old refrigerator, and a temp controller for the 'fridge, and you're in 'bidness!
I always thought that this would only take a role in controling the esthers and eventually fusel alcohols produced by the yeast. Never thought about bacteriel growth though....
I am at the beginning of brewing beer, have some years of experience in making mead, whine and cider, but just did recently start with beer. New things to learn every day
I always thought that this would only take a role in controling the esthers and eventually fusel alcohols produced by the yeast. Never thought about bacteriel growth though....
I am at the beginning of brewing beer, have some years of experience in making mead, whine and cider, but just did recently start with beer. New things to learn every day
For reference, I don't keep mine in a temp controlled box, just in a low-spot in my house where I know the cool air collects. I should probably put it down in my basement tbh. I keep my house around 70°F year round, though the spot I keep it probably stays closer to 65°F
Racked off the clear, could probably bottle now like I did last time, but I think I'll rack it once more then bottle. No souring or vinegar scents or tastes as far as I can tell.
The boundary between the clear and the excess starch/protein at the bottom has a really cool texture. Reminds me looking at the surface of the moon.
The boundary between the clear and the excess starch/protein at the bottom has a really cool texture. Reminds me looking at the surface of the moon.
ethics_gradient
Member
Just an update: I harvested those two batches at 25 days, and took a bottle to my local homebrew (beer, really) club meeting... it was a big hit! I got about 1.2L out of two jars, only lasted a couple days. I am glad I stuck with it after my first batch was such a failure.
I went to make another batch of glutinous and thought I'd remembered reading you could skip the presoak... it cooked really poorly (I think I was remembering people saying you could skip the rinse, though others disagree). I think the problem was not pre-soaking and the water being able to touch the stuff at the very bottom... I tried doing 3-4 inches worth of rice in a BIAB bag, inside the stainless steel steamer basket of my brew kettle. There is a very small amount of clearance between bottom of the basket and the submerged element, so I had to keep lifting it out and refilling to avoid dry-firing the element. At times I think I overfilled, which led to really mushy rice on the bottom, and the stuff on the top not cooking at all. It was a crappy experience and after like an hour or so I threw it all out and called it a day.
After some delay, I steamed another batch today; this time I used two stacking bamboo steamer baskets for the rice, which I rested on four filled water glasses as "legs" to keep them well above the water, which I filled high enough that I didn't need to worry about top-offs. Worked out well, although each steamer only holds about 6 cups of soaked rice, which is only enough to fill half of a 3.8L fermenting jar. If I used shorter legs (which may require adding some water, but not the end of the world as I have to rotate the baskets/turn the rice anyways) I think I could fit in an additional two levels of steamers, but I'd still like a lot more capacity. I may try doing it in a big cookpot like regular rice and see if the results are acceptable, rather than doing like 4-5 back-to-back steaming batches to fill one 30L fermenter.
CanadianJesus
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Ok, so I haven't made a batch of this in a while. I think it's time to give it another go. I have made two perfect batches that tasted amazing and a few that turned sour.
So my question is, how long do yeast balls stay viable? I have an unopened bag of Onto Yeast that has been in a cabinet (not refrigerator) for about a year now. Will the yeast still be viable or are they dead after that long?
Should I go ahead and try a batch or should I just order more?
So my question is, how long do yeast balls stay viable? I have an unopened bag of Onto Yeast that has been in a cabinet (not refrigerator) for about a year now. Will the yeast still be viable or are they dead after that long?
Should I go ahead and try a batch or should I just order more?
My thought is that it's probably viable for years. But I'll wait and see what someone else says.
Darthbrewder
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Try it and see what happens. I have some arl that is a couple years past expiration and a few months ago I used it to make some rice wine. I'm sure the enzymes in your balls are still viable. If the yeast is not viable you can always add some white wine yeast after a week or two, if the sugars don't start fermenting. Rice is inexpensive, and you can't learn anything if you don't try anything.
Grod1
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you just have to say nice things to them.
Every day for one month, Emoto spoke whatever was on the bottle to the rice inside (since this is about intentionality, it doesn’t matter whether the other rice “overhear”
. And after thirty days, what happened? Well, the “Thank You!” rice “began to ferment, giving off a strong, pleasant aroma.” The “You’re An Idiot” rice turned mostly black, and the control rice “began to rot,” turning a disgusting green-blue color. "ethics_gradient
Member
So last month I did two batches with glutinous rice and a combination of ARL + yeast balls (because why not). One batch I boiled and messed up -- added too much water and overcooked a bit. The other I steamed in steamer baskets according to "how to cook sticky rice" instructions, which by comparison was a PITA. The rice itself came out well, would have been happy to have it alongside some northeastern Thai cuisine.
However, I have gotten basically 0 conversion from the steamed one (yes, I waited until it was cooled to add). The "boiled in too much water" one, on the other hand, went gangbusters. I just had a quick taste and seems a little too watery compared to my last batch, but I think I'm going to do more experiments with boiling sticky rice in the future, just with less water.
I may try and steam again, but add some water after pitching the yeast/mould culture. But if I get another 1-2 duds, I think I will abandon the practice (for brewing, at least).
However, I have gotten basically 0 conversion from the steamed one (yes, I waited until it was cooled to add). The "boiled in too much water" one, on the other hand, went gangbusters. I just had a quick taste and seems a little too watery compared to my last batch, but I think I'm going to do more experiments with boiling sticky rice in the future, just with less water.
I may try and steam again, but add some water after pitching the yeast/mould culture. But if I get another 1-2 duds, I think I will abandon the practice (for brewing, at least).
CanadianJesus
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Yea, I think I'll give it a shot with the unopened bag of yeast balls. I have one half full bag that has been open for a about a year that I will just throw out. Who knows what nasties from the air might be in them now.
I'm pretty sure the yeast will still be viable. I recently used a bag of Wyeast 1388 that had been stored in the same cabinet un-refrigerated to make two 1 gallon batches of mead. I made a starter with it to see if it would ferment, took a gravity reading and it was still very viable. My mead is fermenting fast too. I think yeast is more hardy than what the internet says.
I'm pretty sure the yeast will still be viable. I recently used a bag of Wyeast 1388 that had been stored in the same cabinet un-refrigerated to make two 1 gallon batches of mead. I made a starter with it to see if it would ferment, took a gravity reading and it was still very viable. My mead is fermenting fast too. I think yeast is more hardy than what the internet says.
Anyone here presoak? I think I'm going to give it a shot in my next batch. I just invested in a 60 cup rice cooker because using the oven method I've been getting solid cores in my rice grains, and I hate that loss of the most desirable part of the rice.
My question is, how does that affect water amount needed to cook?
My question is, how does that affect water amount needed to cook?
Darthbrewder
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Usually you presoak rice if you are planning on steaming. Presoaking-then, cooking in a rice cooker may give you a mess, because of the added moisture in the rice. Although if you let the rice drain in a colander for an hour or so before you cook it, it may turn out better than if you didn't drain the rice.
Batch #1, 17/7/2017
5kg Thai jasmine rice [$15]
2L+ of water per liter of dry rice
Rinsed, not soaked, boiled in a pot
No mesh bag (until straining at harvest)
10 Chinese yeast balls [$4]
5L of water added at 10-14 days
Harvested and bottled on 7/8/2017, 21 days
Yield; 13L [$1.46/L]
Was very hard to squeeze out wine from rice lees.
Taste; very lacto-sour on first sip, only mild sourness after.
Chalky mouth feel. Sweet-ish.
Sediment dropped to the bottom quickly at ~25 days.
Taste of clear wine; Much less sour, especially after first sip.
Smooth, rice taste on finish, hint of vanilla.
Much less sweet but not quite dry. Better than cloudy.
This is very nice clear and would be even better if it wasn't so lacto-sour.
I thought a 2+:1 ratio for cooking plus an extra 5L would be way too much water, but it was actually at a really nice strength as far as alcohol content and flavour.
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Batch #2, 24/7/2017
4.8kg Australian jasmine rice [$10, usually $12]
1.5L of water per liter of dry rice
(Rinsed?), not soaked, cooked in rice cooker
No mesh bag (until straining at harvest)
4 Chinese yeast balls [$1.60]
Harvested and bottled 15/8/2017, 22 days
Yield; 5.5L [$2.11/L]
I discarded the lees before finishing squeezing wine out.
Taste; Sharp front. Liquid is thick. Notably alcoholic in taste and effect.
Warming effect in upper chest on drinking. Very slight banana/vanilla.
A longer ferment with additional water may have been a good idea.
Update 20/8/2017; Started to drop clear slightly, fermentation is probably finished now. Notably thinner.
This one was way too thick until fermentation finished in the bottles. Even after it had finished maybe a little on the thick side, but otherwise very tasty, lots of banana on the finish, more than was there the day I bottled.
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Batches not yet finished, detailed notes will come later:
Batch #3, 5kg Thai sticky rice, 23rd day in primary
Batch #4, 5kg Thai sticky rice, 16th day in primary
Batch #5, 5kg cheap jasmine rice, 9th day in primary
Batch #6, 5kg cheap jasmine rice, 2nd day in primary
----------
Using less water in the cooking of the rice is definitely the key to keeping the lacto-souring in check as others have already found, but I'll be adding water after 1 week to bring the total water:rice up to at least 2:1 and probably experimenting with larger amounts.
I am also going to start leaving these for 4 weeks in primary, 3 weeks doesn't seem to be long enough for me.
After my first batch I reduced the number of yeast balls I use a lot, I think I use fewer than most in this thread at this point at just 4 per 5kg dry rice (~11lbs for you Americans). I'll be on the look-out for signs I've under pitched but so far things seem fine enough. Typically when I open the fermenter at day 7 to add water the rice is already covered by or floating on a pool of sweet rice-liquid (I only open it once during fermentation, so it may happen much sooner).
I have been thinking about having read that traditionally some people add 1.3x the dry weight of the rice in water after a few days, I looked into cooking sticky rice in a rice cooker as well. The instructions I commonly find for this say to use 2/3 of the weight of the sticky rice in water for cooking. This is where I got the 2:1 ratio I'm trying now from, and may be why some people who used a 1.5:1 ratio to cook jasmine, then added 1.3x the weight to a total of 2.8:1 thought it was so watery - less water is used to cook sticky rice, and sticky rice is more dense in usable starches.
The type of yeast ball I've been using is the one with the bird (crane?) on the front in red, along with red Chinese writing.
My fermenters are 5+ gallon opaque buckets, I place a tea towel over the opening before putting the lid on to allow gas exchange.
To finish fermenting in the bottles, I bottle in used screw-top wine bottles and unscrew the caps a 1/4 turn to allow gas exchange.
5kg Thai jasmine rice [$15]
2L+ of water per liter of dry rice
Rinsed, not soaked, boiled in a pot
No mesh bag (until straining at harvest)
10 Chinese yeast balls [$4]
5L of water added at 10-14 days
Harvested and bottled on 7/8/2017, 21 days
Yield; 13L [$1.46/L]
Was very hard to squeeze out wine from rice lees.
Taste; very lacto-sour on first sip, only mild sourness after.
Chalky mouth feel. Sweet-ish.
Sediment dropped to the bottom quickly at ~25 days.
Taste of clear wine; Much less sour, especially after first sip.
Smooth, rice taste on finish, hint of vanilla.
Much less sweet but not quite dry. Better than cloudy.
This is very nice clear and would be even better if it wasn't so lacto-sour.
I thought a 2+:1 ratio for cooking plus an extra 5L would be way too much water, but it was actually at a really nice strength as far as alcohol content and flavour.
----------
Batch #2, 24/7/2017
4.8kg Australian jasmine rice [$10, usually $12]
1.5L of water per liter of dry rice
(Rinsed?), not soaked, cooked in rice cooker
No mesh bag (until straining at harvest)
4 Chinese yeast balls [$1.60]
Harvested and bottled 15/8/2017, 22 days
Yield; 5.5L [$2.11/L]
I discarded the lees before finishing squeezing wine out.
Taste; Sharp front. Liquid is thick. Notably alcoholic in taste and effect.
Warming effect in upper chest on drinking. Very slight banana/vanilla.
A longer ferment with additional water may have been a good idea.
Update 20/8/2017; Started to drop clear slightly, fermentation is probably finished now. Notably thinner.
This one was way too thick until fermentation finished in the bottles. Even after it had finished maybe a little on the thick side, but otherwise very tasty, lots of banana on the finish, more than was there the day I bottled.
----------
Batches not yet finished, detailed notes will come later:
Batch #3, 5kg Thai sticky rice, 23rd day in primary
Batch #4, 5kg Thai sticky rice, 16th day in primary
Batch #5, 5kg cheap jasmine rice, 9th day in primary
Batch #6, 5kg cheap jasmine rice, 2nd day in primary
----------
Using less water in the cooking of the rice is definitely the key to keeping the lacto-souring in check as others have already found, but I'll be adding water after 1 week to bring the total water:rice up to at least 2:1 and probably experimenting with larger amounts.
I am also going to start leaving these for 4 weeks in primary, 3 weeks doesn't seem to be long enough for me.
After my first batch I reduced the number of yeast balls I use a lot, I think I use fewer than most in this thread at this point at just 4 per 5kg dry rice (~11lbs for you Americans). I'll be on the look-out for signs I've under pitched but so far things seem fine enough. Typically when I open the fermenter at day 7 to add water the rice is already covered by or floating on a pool of sweet rice-liquid (I only open it once during fermentation, so it may happen much sooner).
I have been thinking about having read that traditionally some people add 1.3x the dry weight of the rice in water after a few days, I looked into cooking sticky rice in a rice cooker as well. The instructions I commonly find for this say to use 2/3 of the weight of the sticky rice in water for cooking. This is where I got the 2:1 ratio I'm trying now from, and may be why some people who used a 1.5:1 ratio to cook jasmine, then added 1.3x the weight to a total of 2.8:1 thought it was so watery - less water is used to cook sticky rice, and sticky rice is more dense in usable starches.
The type of yeast ball I've been using is the one with the bird (crane?) on the front in red, along with red Chinese writing.
My fermenters are 5+ gallon opaque buckets, I place a tea towel over the opening before putting the lid on to allow gas exchange.
To finish fermenting in the bottles, I bottle in used screw-top wine bottles and unscrew the caps a 1/4 turn to allow gas exchange.
CanadianJesus
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So my batch of rice wine is fermenting along just fine using the 1+ year old yeast balls.
I don't notice any less liquefaction or any less CO2 bubbles than I did last year.
BTW, my batch is 1kg sweet rice split between two 1 gallon jars. So that's 4 cups per jar. I have quite a bit of headspace so next time I'll do 5 cups cooked rice per gallon jar. I forgot since last year that I used a bag and a half per batch.
I now have three 2kg bags of rice for future batches
I don't notice any less liquefaction or any less CO2 bubbles than I did last year.
BTW, my batch is 1kg sweet rice split between two 1 gallon jars. So that's 4 cups per jar. I have quite a bit of headspace so next time I'll do 5 cups cooked rice per gallon jar. I forgot since last year that I used a bag and a half per batch.
I now have three 2kg bags of rice for future batches
Good to hear I'm not the only one still working on / reporting back on this timeless gem
Batch #3, 31/7/17
5kg Thai sticky rice [$14]
1.35L water per liter of dry rice
(Rinsed?), not soaked, boiled in a pot
4 Chinese yeast balls [$1.6]
3.3L of water added 7/8/2017 (day 7)
Total water:rice ratio of 2:1
Harvested 27/8/2017 (day 27)
Yield; 10.5L [$1.49/L]
Top of rice in the bucket was thick with wispy white micelium, small green spot was removed with a spoon. Top of rice had a layer that was rubbery and dark-peach in colour. Much easier to squeeze out wine from lees this time.
"Pasteurisation"; Wine was heated to only 60*C as it began to steam visibly around 50*C and was steaming heavily at 60*C. I deemed it to be a safety issue as it was heated by an open flame. Technically the wine was not pasteurised.
Cold-crashing; Wine was poured through a funnel into 3L plastic bottles and placed in the refridgerator, both before and after "pasteurisation" the sediment clears quickly.
Taste; At room temperature - very smooth (notably smoother than my previous batches), slight bitterness at the sides of the tongue. Very hard to describe. Extremely faint vanilla on finish, possible slight metallic taste?
Perhaps the pot was aluminium and not stainless.
Over all very neutral but pleasant.
Batch #3, 31/7/17
5kg Thai sticky rice [$14]
1.35L water per liter of dry rice
(Rinsed?), not soaked, boiled in a pot
4 Chinese yeast balls [$1.6]
3.3L of water added 7/8/2017 (day 7)
Total water:rice ratio of 2:1
Harvested 27/8/2017 (day 27)
Yield; 10.5L [$1.49/L]
Top of rice in the bucket was thick with wispy white micelium, small green spot was removed with a spoon. Top of rice had a layer that was rubbery and dark-peach in colour. Much easier to squeeze out wine from lees this time.
"Pasteurisation"; Wine was heated to only 60*C as it began to steam visibly around 50*C and was steaming heavily at 60*C. I deemed it to be a safety issue as it was heated by an open flame. Technically the wine was not pasteurised.
Cold-crashing; Wine was poured through a funnel into 3L plastic bottles and placed in the refridgerator, both before and after "pasteurisation" the sediment clears quickly.
Taste; At room temperature - very smooth (notably smoother than my previous batches), slight bitterness at the sides of the tongue. Very hard to describe. Extremely faint vanilla on finish, possible slight metallic taste?
Perhaps the pot was aluminium and not stainless.
Over all very neutral but pleasant.
MasterCrook
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I've taken a break from making rice wine over the summer but now that fall is coming I'm thinking about starting a new batch. Has anyone tried fermenting with ginger?
How so, using the ginger as a source for mold and yeast, or as a flavoring?
Scout
Well-Known Member
I think I'm going to try another batch tonight. My first batch was ok, but had a taste I didn't think should be there.
CanadianJesus
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Has anyone had success in using yeast nutrients (Fermaid-K, Fermaid-O, DAP etc) in the process? Does it make an improvement or can it be possibly detrimental?
If you do, what brand(s) and amounts do you use?
The few times I have tried it my batches ended up either sour or possibly infected. I may experiment more after I get one more successful traditional batch done (no nutrients, just yeast and rice). BTW, my latest is due to be bottled tomorrow
If you do, what brand(s) and amounts do you use?
The few times I have tried it my batches ended up either sour or possibly infected. I may experiment more after I get one more successful traditional batch done (no nutrients, just yeast and rice). BTW, my latest is due to be bottled tomorrow
MasterCrook
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As a flavoring, but i think maybe it would be better to add after bottling
Agreed.
Options would be to add the ginger to the rice wine after harvesting from the rice/lees and before clearing/decanting off the lees, or to add ginger boiled in water to the finished, decanted wine.
CanadianJesus
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So my latest batch turned out to be my best yet!
I got just over 2 liters of wine from 8 cups of rice. Interestingly, I found the amount of bottled wine equal to the amount of water I used to cook the rice.
This result has me encouraged to continue making this and to perfect my technique and see if I can manage to get consistent results every time.
I am also encouraged to start experimenting with different amounts of water and adding flavorings to the finished product. It's cheap enough where I can make repeated batches and toss it out if it turns out really bad.
I think what ruined previous batches for me was adding too much rice to the jars and when the rice expanded in the first few days it touched the cheese cloth, which made me open the jar to scoop out rice (with a sanitized spoon), but I think it got infected when I did that. I'm pretty sure the key is to not open the jars until you bottle it, just leave it and let it be!
I got just over 2 liters of wine from 8 cups of rice. Interestingly, I found the amount of bottled wine equal to the amount of water I used to cook the rice.
This result has me encouraged to continue making this and to perfect my technique and see if I can manage to get consistent results every time.
I am also encouraged to start experimenting with different amounts of water and adding flavorings to the finished product. It's cheap enough where I can make repeated batches and toss it out if it turns out really bad.
I think what ruined previous batches for me was adding too much rice to the jars and when the rice expanded in the first few days it touched the cheese cloth, which made me open the jar to scoop out rice (with a sanitized spoon), but I think it got infected when I did that. I'm pretty sure the key is to not open the jars until you bottle it, just leave it and let it be!
The amount of finished product was equal to the volume of water that you used to cook the rice with? That is interesting. I wonder if that's a coincidence for your batch or if there's a correlation with all batches and no one ever took notice?
It makes sense (water in = wine out) but, if this is a consistent pattern, then it explains the posts when people say their batches came out better/worse and the only thing they did different was use more or less water when cooking the rice.
Very interesting indeed.
CanadianJesus
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My latest batch that I just started the other day, I used equal amounts rice to water. I'll be interested to see how this turns out. It's sort of an experiment to see if there really is any correlation with how much water is used to how much 'wine' I get out of it. Also I want to see the taste difference.
Clearbeer1
clearbeer1
I have been reading this for the past several evenings and have decided to give it a try. A question that I have is Can you repitch the leftover rice/yeast slurry to a fresh batch of cooked rice and still get good wine?
Thanks
Thanks
@clearbear, no. The only viabile microorganism in the slurry would be the yeast. That said, if you have some semiwhole rice grains you can add them with new rice and new balls/arl.
Procedure best practices update:
Start the rice out with cheese cloth covering it for the first 2-4 days (small enough holes that fruitflies can't fit, but oxygen can). Then put it under airlock with an aggressive yeast. When your bubbles are more than 14 seconds apart, you can go ahead and strain, pasteurize, and rack it. It's cutting my brew time down by 2 weeks.
Procedure best practices update:
Start the rice out with cheese cloth covering it for the first 2-4 days (small enough holes that fruitflies can't fit, but oxygen can). Then put it under airlock with an aggressive yeast. When your bubbles are more than 14 seconds apart, you can go ahead and strain, pasteurize, and rack it. It's cutting my brew time down by 2 weeks.
sgreene820
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None of the bodegas in my area carry yeast balls or red yeast rice. Neither seem to be carried on Amazon anymore.
Anyone know someplace in the DC area to buy these?
TIA.
Anyone know someplace in the DC area to buy these?
TIA.
None of the bodegas in my area carry yeast balls or red yeast rice. Neither seem to be carried on Amazon anymore.
Anyone know someplace in the DC area to buy these?
TIA.
Funny, they pop right up on Amazon for me:
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=yeast+balls
Probably much cheaper locally at an Asian food store.
sgreene820
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Yep, when I searched again, it came up. Ordered. I wondered how I phrased the query that first time that didn't hit on it?
Still no vendor for red yeast rice starter. I wonder if I can cultivate from one of the extract capsules they sell for cholesterol?
Still no vendor for red yeast rice starter. I wonder if I can cultivate from one of the extract capsules they sell for cholesterol?
I made my first batch on Sunday. I hope it turns out good.
sgreene820
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H Mart in the DC area, is Korean owned. Big stores, too, but no luck. I did find RYR on ebay.
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