surreal_trip
Well-Known Member
Whats the deal... do these work?? are they really helpful??? can i get a plus minus on these suckers... I've done plenty of research but you guys can't seem to get your story straight!
Therminator or equivalent
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wyzazz
Well-Known Member
Yes they work, the plate chillers that we use for brewing are really just smaller versions of what the big boys use.
Some are worried about cleaning them but I've yet to have a problem with mine.
Some are worried about cleaning them but I've yet to have a problem with mine.
Simphoto02
WoodyBlue
I agree. I was terrified about keeping my Therminator clean. They are not the easiest thing to clean especially if you have a bunch of post boil crap. Constant flushing through the Hot side back and forth from one fitting to the other gets the crud out eventually.
Maybe a dozen or so batches through mine and no problems. Just follow the directions on cleaning and you should be Okay. besides the cool like a Mutha.
billymeter
Well-Known Member
Here's a video of a guy on YouTube who got a plate chiller for $82 shipped. It has more plates than the Shirron but less than the Therminator. Maybe worth checking out.
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Cpt_Kirks
Well-Known Member
I just ordered a 30 plate from KC. That "5 minutes to 68*F or so" thing convinced me.
Though, now I need a pump, QD's, hoses, fittings...
Though, now I need a pump, QD's, hoses, fittings...
OP
OP
surreal_trip
Well-Known Member
do you really need a pump and all the rest of the stuff?
Cpt_Kirks
Well-Known Member
No, you don't have to have it. Well, you needs hoses and connectors.
You can use gravity instead of a pump for the wort, and use a garden hose connected to the tap for cooling water.
The pump for the wort, a submersible pump for ice water, and quick disconnects just make it work better, or easier to use.
Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions..
. Using a plate chiller is ok if you like doubling your clean up time and dropping the coins. I speak from experience. I have a Therminator. I backflush like hell, then drop it into a pressure cooker, then bag it to make sure it's ready for the next brew. Often i have to back flush before i can finish the cool down. In a word, it's a PITA.
HickoryMike
Well-Known Member
Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions..
I would be curious to hear how you are filtering out your hops. Those that use a good hop bag don't seem to have the same problems you're describing.
Cpt_Kirks
Well-Known Member
Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions..
Have you ever had any infections traceable to your plate chiller?
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
I see this question pop up a lot. Besides plating samples from your equipment, how would someone trace an infection at the homebrew level? And, who is going to the trouble of [accurately] plating, incubating, and reading samples? :cross:
If you want to know the true infection rate for a plate chiller, ask a professional brewer. They all use some form of plate chiller. Which, after reading this thread, means they MUST produce a lot of infected beer since plate chillers are so difficult to clean.
ThatGuyRyan
Well-Known Member
I love mine except for the times I forget to use a hop bag! I also use a hopblocker with mine and that and a hop bag = no issues at all. I also really dont find it that hard to clean. Once I am done with the wort I then clean out my kettle then put some clean water in it and run that through the chiller into a bucked and discard just to get the junk out. Then I cycle some leftover sanitizer while I am doing the rest of my cleaning and the last step after I take everything apart is to just hook up the back flush hose to my sink and back flush the therminator before putting it away, flushing from both the in and outlet. Then when I want to use it again I back flush it on brew day then cycle my boiling wort for about the last 15-20 minutes. Never had any issues doing it this way. But forgetting to use a hop sock is a completely different story! I takes some time to get your cleaning regiment down but once you do it will flow with the rest or you cleaning duties.
Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions..
Thanks Suds, I am building a brew tree. You convinced me on the Counterflow. It doesn't look as nice as a Plate Chiller, and takes up more room, but I want painless brewing.
Not to hijack the thread, but I feel that this needs to be asked....does the Counterflow do as well bringing down the temps as a Plate Chiller?
wyzazz
Well-Known Member
Nope, Plate Frame Heat Exchangers are the most efficient chillers on the market, that's why pro-brewers use them. The CounterFlow chillers are the next best thing though.
Captain_Bigelow
Well-Known Member
I had a 40 plate chiller from eBay. I couldn't get below 80 even with a slow trickle and 30+ minutes. I then went to a 25ft CFC and finally a 50ft 1/2" IC with whirlpool.
Out of all the methods I tried, the 50ft IC with whirlpooling through a pump (aka Jamil's wort chiller) works the best. I get the whole batch below 140 within about 3 minutes and get to pitching temperatures in less than 15 minutes. The own drawback is the size and storage.
The key to a CFC or plate chiller is to get the coolant water as cold as possible. So you will probably need to use ice water and a pre-chiller in the summer.
Out of all the methods I tried, the 50ft IC with whirlpooling through a pump (aka Jamil's wort chiller) works the best. I get the whole batch below 140 within about 3 minutes and get to pitching temperatures in less than 15 minutes. The own drawback is the size and storage.
The key to a CFC or plate chiller is to get the coolant water as cold as possible. So you will probably need to use ice water and a pre-chiller in the summer.
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
A couple of things to note:
- Plate chillers use turbulence (via the stamped ripple plates) to increase efficiency. Flowing less than 0.5 gal/min is counterproductive.
- You water must have been in the mid 70s, assuming a 5F differential.
- Using a pre-chiller is effective but a post-chiller is more efficient with the same amount of ice water.
kcinpdx
Well-Known Member
My concern with a plate chiller is the same thing I have been experiencing with my CFC. Hop flavor and aroma seem to be taking a hit. Even though it cools relatively quickly, most of the wort remains at high temperatures into it passes through the chiller. This leaves the late hop additions exposed to the wort for a much longer time. I am considering going back to an immersion chiller for this reason.
Simphoto02
WoodyBlue
The thing about plate chillers is that most people make the mistake of both the wort and cooling water flows being to high of a rate. For the plate chiller to effective it needs to take full advantage of the surface area and contact time to achieve the heat transfer. Slow the cooling water speed down and give it a chance to actually pull the heat out of te wort. Running either or both too fast does not give it the time and opportunity to do what the physics wants to do.
Now I have changed my mind, because this article makes perfect since to me. I read this link and I can build that so easy. Whole batch needs to be cooled IMO now that I understand it. I have been kicking around what to do, I have a IC. I am going to do this "Whirlpool Immersion Chiller" method.
http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php
Captain_Bigelow
Well-Known Member
I did some tests on this whirlpooling method a few weeks back.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/ic-v-ic-whirl-pooling-192012/
BrewMoreBeers
Well-Known Member
My Plate chiller is the best. I can cool a five gallon batch from boil to sixty degrees in about five minutes. Way faster than anything else i have tried. I push ice water thru the chiller with a small pond pump.
Cleaning is easy. I always brew with a five gallon bucket of PBW and sanstar standing by. While i boil I pre-clean my chiller by using a pond pump to push pbw thru is for 15 minutes and then starsan for five. then back flush with the same method after I am done chilling the batch. the pump does all the work while i clean everything else. Easy, fast, efficient and it uses less than three gallons of water and fifteen pounds of ice to chill five gallons.
I made a manifold with QD connections to facilitate use and cleaning and i use a ball valve on the ice water side to restrict flow if needed... I do not always want to chill all the way to sixty degrees.
I bought the plate chiller because it is fast and efficient. I did not want to spend thirty minutes with an IC or deal with storing a bulky CFC.
Cleaning is easy. I always brew with a five gallon bucket of PBW and sanstar standing by. While i boil I pre-clean my chiller by using a pond pump to push pbw thru is for 15 minutes and then starsan for five. then back flush with the same method after I am done chilling the batch. the pump does all the work while i clean everything else. Easy, fast, efficient and it uses less than three gallons of water and fifteen pounds of ice to chill five gallons.
I made a manifold with QD connections to facilitate use and cleaning and i use a ball valve on the ice water side to restrict flow if needed... I do not always want to chill all the way to sixty degrees.
I bought the plate chiller because it is fast and efficient. I did not want to spend thirty minutes with an IC or deal with storing a bulky CFC.
StoutForBreakfast
Member
There is no performance-related reason to run the cooling water slower (for IC, CFC, or Plate). The only reason to slow the cooling water is if you are "water conscious" and don't want to use/waste as much. The hot wort should be throttled so that it exits at the correct temperature.
kcinpdx
Well-Known Member
I've always been curious about this. My thought was the same - the speed of water flow should not really matter, but I know very little about thermodynamics, if thermodynamics even applies here!
StoutForBreakfast
Member
Well, thermodynamics doesn't really apply, but heat transfer certainly does. In a plate chiller (or CFC) you have 3 stages of heat transfer going on.
The first is convection from the hot wort to the copper in the HEX. The second is conduction through the copper. The third is convection to the cold water.
I don't remember the exact equations, but....
The conduction rate is directly related to the temperature difference between the opposite sides of the copper (hot wort and cold water). The material (copper) and dimensions of HEX are also variables, but not ones that we can change.
The convection is directly related to the difference in the temp of the copper and the temp of the fluid, as well as the speed of the fluid. Again, HEX dimensions are variables that don't change.
Laminar (slow) flow has a much smaller heat transfer coefficient than does Turbulent (fast) flow. This means that the faster you run your fluids, the faster the heat gets transferred.
Since the only thing we/you can control is the flow rate, that is our only means of controlling the cooling of the wort. Setting your cooling water on high flow will give you the best heat transfer, but you probably want to strike a balance between fast cooling and wasting water. Your wort flow should be set at a speed that lets it exit at the right temp (below 80F). In theory, it shouldn't matter whether you have turbulent flow in the wort since it is a closed system, unexposed to air.
BTW, plate CF HEX's are great. I got the $75 one from DudaDiesel and had 10 gals cooled to 70F in about 15 min. I am water conscious. Could have gone faster, but 15 min is plenty fast and why waste the water? I can't imagine the $200 blichman would be any better. The only concern is whether I will get cancer from the DudaDiessel one. It says Stainless steel and 99.9% copper brazing material. Fingers crossed.
The first is convection from the hot wort to the copper in the HEX. The second is conduction through the copper. The third is convection to the cold water.
I don't remember the exact equations, but....
The conduction rate is directly related to the temperature difference between the opposite sides of the copper (hot wort and cold water). The material (copper) and dimensions of HEX are also variables, but not ones that we can change.
The convection is directly related to the difference in the temp of the copper and the temp of the fluid, as well as the speed of the fluid. Again, HEX dimensions are variables that don't change.
Laminar (slow) flow has a much smaller heat transfer coefficient than does Turbulent (fast) flow. This means that the faster you run your fluids, the faster the heat gets transferred.
Since the only thing we/you can control is the flow rate, that is our only means of controlling the cooling of the wort. Setting your cooling water on high flow will give you the best heat transfer, but you probably want to strike a balance between fast cooling and wasting water. Your wort flow should be set at a speed that lets it exit at the right temp (below 80F). In theory, it shouldn't matter whether you have turbulent flow in the wort since it is a closed system, unexposed to air.
BTW, plate CF HEX's are great. I got the $75 one from DudaDiesel and had 10 gals cooled to 70F in about 15 min. I am water conscious. Could have gone faster, but 15 min is plenty fast and why waste the water? I can't imagine the $200 blichman would be any better. The only concern is whether I will get cancer from the DudaDiessel one. It says Stainless steel and 99.9% copper brazing material. Fingers crossed.
BrewMoreBeers
Well-Known Member
My bilchman does five gallons of boil to sixty degrees in five min... I use ice water rather than tap water, so i only " waste" three gallons of water and 15 pounds of ice. The time is well worth the cost to me.
I throttle the cold water to control the final temp and get good success. I can cool to whatever final temp I want b/w 60 & 80 degrees in 5 min.
Ten gallon batches will need more ice than I use... I melt it all on my runs.
I throttle the cold water to control the final temp and get good success. I can cool to whatever final temp I want b/w 60 & 80 degrees in 5 min.
Ten gallon batches will need more ice than I use... I melt it all on my runs.
SankePankey
Well-Known Member
From my understanding speaking to the Dudadiesel people, the faster the chill water the better. It takes the heat up and on outa dere. The wort should be slow enough to get the desired exit temp, so slow enough to transmit as much heat as needed before exiting.
One thing I don't see many people recommending (hardly):
If the showdown is plate chiller vs. jamil-o-pool IC, then why not a Jamil-o-plate. Why not recirculate the output of the plate chiller back into the kettle. I hear a 'flaw' of the plate chiller is that the majority of the wort stays at boiling temp too long. Problem solved.
I guess it has something to do with hop blockage, but if you are confident in your screening, then why not. Seems like even better than going straight into the fermenter since you'll leave all the trub/break behind... which seems to be the other argument against plate chillers.
EDIT: And you can just use a hose clamp on your line to slow things down. I would hate to have to take apart a ball valve every time I brew just for that purpose. It's the reason I bought a butterfly valve for my boil kettle.
One thing I don't see many people recommending (hardly):
If the showdown is plate chiller vs. jamil-o-pool IC, then why not a Jamil-o-plate. Why not recirculate the output of the plate chiller back into the kettle. I hear a 'flaw' of the plate chiller is that the majority of the wort stays at boiling temp too long. Problem solved.
I guess it has something to do with hop blockage, but if you are confident in your screening, then why not. Seems like even better than going straight into the fermenter since you'll leave all the trub/break behind... which seems to be the other argument against plate chillers.
EDIT: And you can just use a hose clamp on your line to slow things down. I would hate to have to take apart a ball valve every time I brew just for that purpose. It's the reason I bought a butterfly valve for my boil kettle.
zymurgy101
Well-Known Member
I went from IC to the Blichmann Plate Chiller and love it. As mentioned above and in the instructions, you do need to control both wort and cooling water flow rates to achieve maximum cooling. I put a garden hose nozzle on the end of the hose connected to the Water Out of the chiller and make my adjustments in flow rate there...makes it easy. Since I am on a well, I do not have a need to use an ice bath even in the hottest of summer days (100F). Whew...those were hot brew days!! I have not timed how long it takes to cool ten gallons; but at a decent flow rate, I'm pulling down to 72F on hot days.
My cleaning procedure closely follows the same as BrewMoreBeer (above). For me, it is not nearly the PITA that some describe...just my opinion.
My cleaning procedure closely follows the same as BrewMoreBeer (above). For me, it is not nearly the PITA that some describe...just my opinion.
I use a CFC and pump the wort back to the kettle as you described. This works very well for me. One thing I've learned about this procedure is that to be effective you definitely need to screen out the hops while at the same time maintaining a high flow rate. This is often much easier said than done.
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Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions..
Acid brother. Work smarter. Not harder.
SankePankey
Well-Known Member
If you necessitate a strong whirlpool. I do not, I just want to recirculate. My drain is at the bottom center, so a strong whirlpool is not so beneficial.
The slower the wort flows through the chiller the closer to chill water temp it will get. I'm sure there is a point at which the slower flow doesn't chill enough wort in recirculation that it would work in the opposite direction re: chilling efficiency.
Any mathematicians out there?
Here are stats for the 30 plate dudadiesel that I'm considering (for 15 gal).
178* Wort - 1 GPM
68* Chill water - 1 GPM
Wort out = 99* Chillwater out = 145*
Same variables but both at 10 GPM
Wort out = 108* Chillwater out = 136*
I'm guessing if I put them both at 5 GPM, I'll get enough volume of chilled recirculation to get there the fastest.
I recirc. The only time I don't have to is during about 3 months in the winter when my pool water (chilling water) gets below about 60, then I can go straight to fermenter.
Recircing with the plate chiller works fine with a Lil Sparky hop bag. I've increased my hops by 10% to account for loss of utilization. Don't know if that was necessary, but I got spooked and really prefer my beers to err on the side of bitterness. I've never had my therminator clog or even slow down.
I want a high flow rate primarily to speed the chilling. Faster is better on my system, but I'm pumping in a loop back to the BK. I get a fairly strong whirlpool going, but it's only incidental to mixing the wort with the return flow. I am not much concerned about creating a trub pile with the whirlpool as my FB holds back the majority of hop debris and break material.
I disagree with your claim that a slow wort flow through a chiller is the better way to go when recirculating for the chill. The wort temp may not drop as much with each pass through the chiller, but you will be cooling the entire wort volume more quickly with a faster circulation rate and IMO, that's the whole point of doing the recirculation thing.
It's been my experience with the paint strainer contraption that the major loss in hop utilization happens with the late addition hops and the problem gets worse as more hops are added. What I think is happening is that typically only an ounce or two of bittering hops are used at the git go and the flow through that bag is fairly good and all is well. As more hops are added, they begin to coat the inside of the bag which inhibits circulation through the bag and the utilization falls off. This is the reason that I have abandoned the paint strainer bag setup in favor of a false bottom in my BK.
Simphoto02
WoodyBlue
A false bottom of what type of material and construction? A typicle falsebottom like the perforated SS mesh I use in my MLT is too large to stop virtually ANY hop gunk. WHat is your BK false bottom made of, Pics?
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I implemented a grant/hop back between my chiller and kettle. this reduces the chances of breaking siphon from the pump draw and allows me to load the grant with rice hulls for a trub filter prior to passing through my Therminator.
I still recirculate to drive the kettle temp down and to filter the cold break through the grant also.
I still recirculate to drive the kettle temp down and to filter the cold break through the grant also.
Simphoto02
WoodyBlue
Here ya go:
I think the holes are the typical size used in most FB's.
I can see that you are part of the lucky few who get to use whole leaf hops. I have to rely on pellets too many times from my local shop. I suspected that.
Thanks for the pics.
SankePankey
Well-Known Member
Dudadiesel's claim, not mine. I don't own a plate chiller but am trying to determine if it's the way I want to go since I'm unhappy with my IC performance so far.
I think what the guy was saying was if you weren't recirculating, you would have to slow down the wort to attempt to get it to pitching temp in one pass. Asking them to calculate chilling time with a recirculation for my volume to determine the right size chiller for (say) a 10 minute chill prompted sighs and irritation. Guess I'll just have to go with one and check it out.
Simphoto02
WoodyBlue
BINGO!!!!
All of the statements concerning slowing the wort or the water down or speeding it up and all correct. IF you Recirculate then the speed at which your run the wort/water is really irrelevant. IF you cool straight to the fermentor, it makes a HUGE difference as to how fast the wort/water runs.
I go straight to the fermentor from the BK so I throttle back both to get the most heat removal capacity out of the cooling water for it's ONLY contact with the heat exchanger as the wort passes through on it's way to the fermentor.
jturie
Well-Known Member
Dumb question here....what is the "backwash" process? Is it just hooking up a water source to the "wort out" location and blowing water back through the plate chiller?
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