Low final ABV, more than a little bit of a bite on finished product

Hey all,

Finally joined up after nerd sniping myself on this site by reading a ton of posts before brewing my first batch. and decided I would ask if any of you can guess where I am messing up, if you want to call it that. I bought myself a 5 Gal brewing kit for a new job warming gift in October. It came with a Irish Red kit with a dry yeast.

So for my first brew of the Irish Red, the OG wasn't near as high as it should have after soaking the grains and adding the malt extracts/adding hops/etc. After adding the yeast and letting it age for a week, then racking to secondary since it came with a carboy and I figured what the hell, why not. After the two weeks in secondary, I found that the beer only ended up at 3.3%. Not what it was supposed to be, but what the hey, not bad for a first attempt. The beer after bottling and time to carbonate itself turned out perfectly clear though a touch on the sweet side and a weak head. Still, a first beer that came out well, you know I am hooked.

My second beer was an Oatmeal Stout kit, yes I have beer ADD. This was supposed to be a harder beer, but following the directions I hit the OG spot on. Primary and then secondary as before, and the FG ended up 0.014 high. Once again, a much lower ABV than I was supposed to get (only 3.28% rather than the 4.4-5.5% it was supposed to reach). After bottling and self carbonation, this was a deliciously black beer with a wonderful head though a bit of a bite. After a couple sips though you get used to it and can really enjoy it. Definite success in my eyes.

For Christmas I decided to brew an Imperial Nut Brown kit with my father. We got nowhere near the desired OG or FG once again (unfortunately I don't have the sheet with my notes from the brew to give exact figures) Upon sampling the beer on bottling day (this past Sat) the beer also has that strong bite which I am sure will fade while it carbonates.

My question, after writing this book of a post is where could I be screwing up? Is there anything I must be screwing up that would cause fermentation to not drop the gravity or ending up with an ABV anywhere near what the kits are claiming they should, and getting the bite. I imagine I must be boiling too hot or long with the hops or maybe just not cooling it fast enough to get it off the hops before it bitters too much. I am making a point to follow the directions to the letter.

The ingredients and process are very important tools for people to help diagnose. It could be hitting the 1.020 wall (search for the 1.020 curse on HBT) as well.

For instance, not hitting O.G. could be adding too much water or not mixing it well enough. Not getting the attenuation could be caused by multiple factors.

Well, it could be a few things.

When it comes to low OG, with extract there's not much to it. Right amount of extract + right amount of water should give you the desired gravity, so if that is being missed I am thinking somewhere in the quantities (ie: too little extract or too much water) it's getting messed up.

As far as higher FG, extracts tend to have a bit of a problem with that, but if you hit 1.020 instead of 1.015 it's not going to be the end of the world for your beer. It shouldn't make a huge difference, outside of a bit sweeter flavor up front. But if you're way too high (ie: well above 1.020) you could be having problems with the yeast attenuating properly. In that case, you might want to look at your aeration (try shaking the carboy more!) and your ferment temps (is it going too low and making your yeast sleepy?)

You might post the specifics from one of the beers (ingredients, amounts, your process, etc. etc.) and we can see if we can't find any info from that.

Ok. Here is the info from the Oatmeal Stout, where I took the best notes.

Fermentables
3.3lb Special Dark LME
3lb Extra Dark DME
1lb Maltodextrin

Specialty Grains
1lb Oats
6oz Dark Chocolate
12oz 2-row Pale
2oz Caramel 120L
4oz Victory

Hops
1oz bittering
1oz flavoring

What the kit claimed was:
IBU 25-35
OG 1.048-1.056
FG 1.012-1.016
ABV 4.4%-5.5%

What I actually got:
OG 1.055
FG 1.03 (yeah I know, I was doing so well to start)
ABV 3.28%

I don't consider it a fail as it it delicious, and was a heck of a lot of fun, but I would love to get it down so I can start playing with recipes eventually and probably make some truly awful brews.

Some people find they have a hard time getting an accurate OG with extracts, because the wort isn't thoroughly mixed with the top off water. This isn't a problem if you can boil a full 5 gallons of wort though.

If you find your beer is not attenuating as well as you'd like, try leaving it in the primary for 2-4 weeks and skipping the secondary, this gives more yeast longer to work. Additionally, if you find during the last week or so you are still too high you can try GENTLY swirling the fermentor to re-suspend the yeast (gently because you do not want to aerate your beer at this point!) and/or bringing the temp up closer to 68-70*F if it has been fermenting at a cooler ambient temp then that.

I would not transfer my beer until the gravity is unchanged over the course of three days.

my 2 cents...

Welcome to the site

Thanks. I look forward to becoming as knowledgable as you all some day and be able to help others out.

I think I probably am not aerating it enough to start, and probably am also fermenting at a bit low of a temperature. The directions say nothing about aeration and I was worried about oxidizing the beer before it had a chance. As for temperature, I am renting a basement and even though I keep it in the room with the furnace, etc which is an inner most room with the most consistent temp, it can and does get a little chilly in here.

For Fermentation, all 3 batches have appeared to be really happy hyperactive yeast. The morning following brew day and the rest of that day it bubbles away merrily. I see much reduced action for the next few days, but can always stir up some more action through the day I usually rack to secondary. I guess I ought to give it longer in primary as well. I think before I brew my next batch (next week or the week after, I have been given lots of commercial beer recently that I currently have available to drink in the meantime for the bottles, though it doesn't taste anywhere near as good after drinking my own) I am going to build myself a at least partially insulated fermentation box out of blueboard and an improvised warmer of a thermostat and a electric blanket. The immersion chiller is in the process of being fabricated as well.

All in all I think I need to work on patience. I don't even like to wait the 3 weeks to try my first of any brew.

Aerating your wort before you pitch your yeast is fine. Early in the fermentation yeast go through a reproduction phase that requires oxygen, which is lacking (especially in full boils) after boiling the wort. This is more of a concern for high gravity beers or when using liquid yeast. A good dry yeast usually has plenty of cells and don't need to reproduce as much to reach a healthy population.

After the fermentation has started you don't want to add any more oxygen, because that will lead oxidation. Savvy?

Also, I might have seen something in one of your posts about bubbling, don't worry about the bubbles. They are not a reliable indicator of fermentation for a few reasons;
1) If your fermentor does not have a good seal, CO2 can leak out with out producing bubbles in the airlock.
2) after fermentation, the beer will have dissolved CO2 in it, as well as pockets of CO2 in the yeast cake/trub at the bottom of the fermentor. The dissolved or trapped gas can come out of solution or be displaced for a host of reasons including temperature changes, air pressure changes and jiggling the fermenter.

The activity you see after racking COULD be re-invigorated yeast going back to work, or it COULD be CO2 coming out of solution because you've "disturbed" the wort.

So bubbles can give you a false positive and a false negative in different situations.

Hydrometers on the other hand are very reliable, once calibrated to your brewing water, and easy to use, as you know.

Just thought I'd mention it because some times people will jump all over you for implying that bubbling = activity. They are right though, and most on the forums will agree that SG readings are the only reliable way to tell what's going on with your beer.

I know it's hard not to think of it that way, but I thought I'd mention it.

Careful with the blanket that it doesn't get too warm, more off flavors are produced by fermenting too warm early in the fermentation process than too cold. Too cold will put the yeast to sleep though.

If the fermentor is on a concrete or dirt floor, getting it up off the floor, even on a piece of blueboard/pinkboard might be enough.

ps hope I'm not coming off as one of those guys who will jump all over you for equating bubbles with activity My preferred method of reading the tea leaves these days (when I don't want to take gravity readings to often and I'm worrying about it) is to watch the temperature of the stick on thermometer on my ale pail. If it comes up from ambient I know something in there is producing heat. Don't tell anyone, I'm sure someone will say it's as bad as watching bubbles.

Haha, no worries. I don't offend easily and admit to my ignorance. I kinda expected as much, but the bubbles are rather exciting to see, along with the wonderful smell that comes off of it. I trust only the hydrometer, but still like seeing the activity. So oxygen before yeast = OK, after = BAD. Gotcha.

Ok then, on second thought, I am going to go with the homemade wort chiller this time, and build the box and take temperatures and see how it goes. For this brew I will take your elevation advice.

Thanks for all the information.

Glad you found it useful.

The best advice though is to read everything you can, the stickies in the different forums, search out threads on topics you're wondering about, etc... There are some real experts on this forum who have a ton of experience and knowledge. Read all you can a see what makes sense to you.

RDWHAHB and patience patience patience are also excellent pieces of advice, but it sounds like you already know that.

Good luck and happy brewing!

For this beer specifically, if your volume was 5.9 gal then the OG reading was correct. If the volume was 5.0 gal, then your OG was 1.065, give or take a couple points. Yes, with extract it's possible to be that sure. Like munche said, x sugar + y water = z gravity, every time.

The FG problem is pretty understandable, actually. The maltodextrin will add about 8-9 points on its own, and is completely unfermentable. Oats will also add a lot of unfermentables, as could all the other grains depending on how they were mashed. Was this advertised as a mini-mash kit? Did you do a mash? The pale malt is an odd choice for an extract kit.

Anyway, taking out the maltodextrin and assuming your total volume was 5.0 gal, your apparent attenuation was about 62%. That's actually pretty good for dark extract - to do better, you need to use lighter extract.

DrunkleJon, just out of curiosity who made your kits? Brewer's Best? True Brew?

a10t2 said:

Was this advertised as a mini-mash kit? Did you do a mash?...

...Anyway, taking out the maltodextrin and assuming your total volume was 5.0 gal, your apparent attenuation was about 62%. That's actually pretty good for dark extract - to do better, you need to use lighter extract.

Click to expand...

D0ug said:

DrunkleJon, just out of curiosity who made your kits? Brewer's Best? True Brew?

Click to expand...

D0ug, This was a Brewers Best kit I picked up at the HBS local to me.

a10t2, Wow, thanks for the thorough analysis. This was a 5 Gallon batch. It was an "intermediate" kit and in the directions it had a "Steep-to-Convert" step which in my eyes only differed from my other "beginner" kits by extending the time spent steeping the grains.

Also, about the 2-row pale, the description states "2-row malt is included to aid in converting the oat's starches into fermentable sugars." All in all it is my favorite of my 2 completed brews.


From reading other posts in the forum, it looks like my father messed up on the nut brown by letting it get too warm. I remember smelling banana's when we were working with it, and tasted a little chemically. I do hope that time in bottle will help clean it up a little. Worst case scenario is 2 cases of bad beer though right?

Yes a steep-to-convert is also called a partial mash or mini-mash. Doing that makes watching your steeping temperature, which is actually mashing, much more important. Its important to not let the temperature get too high during the mash. It should be somewhere in the mid to low 150s, the exact temp should be in the instructions. Keeping this temp in check will aid in attenuation i.e. lower FG.

The other key is yeast. Are you using the yeast packet that's taped to the top of the can? Those yeast packets honestly don't contain enough yeast to ferment a brew and there's no telling what conditions it has been exposed to. When I was using kits I would always buy additional yeast and use that in place of the included pack. US-05, S-04, and Nottingham are great and dependable dry yeasts.

The second step for good yeast is rehydration. From John Palmer's book:

"5. Rehydrate the dried yeast. Although many people skip this step with fair results, re-hydrating it assures the best results. While you are waiting for the brew water to boil, rehydrate packet of dried ale yeast. Put 1 cup of warm (95-105°F, 35-40°C), preboiled water into your sanitized jar and stir in the yeast. Cover with plastic wrap and wait 15 minutes.

Just a little more effort but the results are well worth it.

johnnyc has some good points, although I regularly use Fermentis yeasts with no rehydration and haven't had any problems with attenuation. FWIW.

I ask about what kits your using because from what I've read here on HBT, kits are highly recommended for beginning brewers because they are so consistent and they eliminate the recipe variables from the equation and allow you to focus on the other aspects of brewing until you have those nailed down.

The big HBS suppliers and kit makers have a lot riding on the quality of their kits and have spent enough time dialing them in that they tend to be very consistent, so I would hesitate to point to the dark extract as the source of the attenuation issues, although they can lead to higher FG's because of caramelization. If this was a recipe you had developed yourself it might be a factor, but I bet Brewer's Best brewed this kit like a GAGILLION times before they released it.

If Brewer's Best says the kit should produce a certain abv, than you should be able to get fairly close. Sure, plus or minus 5 points in gravity isn't a big deal, an should be expected to a degree, but being a full 1.2% below their abv suggests that there MAY be something else in your process you could look at.

It sounds like you have a few process variables you are looking at now though; mash temps, fermentation temp control, etc. and that you're on the right track. Keep working at it, try to nail down your technique, change one thing at a time when you make changes, take notes, and you'll solve it.

Like I said, it looks like you're on the right track. In my opinion.(you know what they say about those though )

high FG seems like a common problem with this kit

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/has-anyone-tried-brewers-best-oatmeal-stout-kit-208196/

Maybe we should ask BB about it.

Edit: Sent an email, got a couple of auto responses, we'll see what they say. I'll let you know.

Strange. After reading that thread the gravities I got were almost exactly where everyone else has been achieving. I will admit it did get a tad warm at one or two points in the "steep to convert" stage since I was working on an electric stove and I probably didn't aerate enough.

I just may give BB a call/Email and ask them about it as well as inquire about it to the guy at my local HBS because I am intrigued. I will report back.

As long as your aeration was adequate and you have a stable ferment temp and your yeast is healthy, all should be good.

I think you probably have a temperature fluctuation issue. That's OK because you're planning on building a temperature stabilization box. That is good. It's important to have the right temperature, but it's also important to be able to keep that temperature stable. At first when things are hot and heavy, you may need to cool it down. Then when things slow down, you might need to apply heat. Temperature control is, in my opinion, a critical factor to consistently good beer.

The yeast could also be a problem. As others have mentioned, kit yeast isn't the healthiest stuff. Yeast should be stored in the fridge. Kits are not normally kept in the fridge. I concur with the recommendation to buy fresh yeast with your kit. US-05 would do the trick most of the time, but everyone has their own preference.

Above all else, welcome to brewing! You done good. You're on the right track, asking questions and seeking to improve your process and results.

FYI in the other thread someone contacted BB and was told to drop the steep temp down to 150. The poster said the instructions called for over 160. I would suggest keeping it at 150 for at least 30 minutes, up to an hour.

As for those who are already stuck I've used amylase enzyme before when I let mash temp get out of control. Basically it converts the sugars that yeast can't convert into sugar it can. I had a stout that got hung in the 1.030s and it got down below 1.020. Your LHBS should have it.

So a follow up to the email I sent last night, FWIW
my email to them:

Subject: Brewer's Best Oatmeal Stout kit

I have some friends who have tried this kit a few times and they say their FG is around 1.033-1.038 or their abv is coming out around 3.2%.
We are curious because the literature you provide with the recipe says it should finish out around 4.4%abv.

What the kit claimed was:
IBU 25-35
OG 1.048-1.056
FG 1.012-1.016
ABV 4.4%-5.5%

What we actually get is typically around:
OG 1.055
FG 1.030
ABV 3.28%

This has been the experience of multiple brewers and multiple attempts to brew this kit. We wouldn't be concerned except for the difference between what you say we should get, and what we wind up with.

Can you comment on this or make some suggestions?

The response I received back from them was less than stellar, but here it is:

Hi Doug,

Thank you for choosing Brewer’s Best® line of ingredient kits. We did have a couple customers with this issue. On the other hand we had quite a few customers that experienced no problems at all. There are a lot of variables that could affect the outcome of this kit. Temperature, conversion, and oxygenation to name a few, can all play a factor. We are currently looking in to all aspects of the kit to see where the problem could be. We do not have a concrete answer why a couple consumers had this issue. We have made it top priority to find the answer to this issue. We test brew every kit that we offer very extensively and make sure to do it just like we state in our directions. This particular kit was brewed multiple times and these were the ranges we achieved. Again, we will be looking into this over the upcoming months to assure on its next release that all home brewer’s have the same end result.





Ryan T. Stelzer

L.D. Carlson company.

Customer Service.



It's a little cavalier of him to suggest that it is just a couple of brewers having a problem, as I'm sure I could find a dozen HBT'ers who had this issue in about 5 minutes of searching. He is also assuming everyone who had this issue contacted him. He does suggest a few possible factors that have been discussed here already including steeping/mash temps, which affects starch conversion, and oxygenation. He also says their specs are from their own (highly controlled and optimized, I'm sure) test batches. Anyway, only sort of helpful I guess.

Regardless, I might try pushing him a little more to see what else he has to say. I will post any new info here.

Kits are only as good as their recipes. This one doesn't seem half bad. Not all extracts are created equal, but as a whole, they do tend to produce under attenuation.

You have already done a partial mash. Was it hard ? No. Pick a good and proven partial mash recipe from the database here and go at it: I'd suggest trying Bob's offerings since they are simple and allow you to understand how each ingredients work with each others. It will be probably cheaper than a kit and you'll have more flexibility.

If anyone's still interested I sent Ryan at Brewer's Best another email;

See below:

My follow up

Ryan,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I appreciate your points regarding brewer's process variables impacting the finished product, but the question arises when dozens of brewers are having the same experience, could there be other factors.

Some have implied that the brew statistics for this beer are either calculated, or just general stats not actually derived from test brews. Others have wondered if the high amount of maltodextrin in this recipe or the use of dark malt extracts could be the culprit, leading to more unfermetable sugars and therefore lower than anticpated apparent attenuation. Some have also commented that lowering the stepping/mash temperature from the published 160 degrees F to 150 degrees F seems to go a long way towards mitigating this issue.

Just my groups observations and thoughts on this issue. I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you could make regarding them.

Again, I thank you for your prompt reply.

Doug Murphy


And his response:
Doug,

I appreciate the time you dedicate in order to keep your group informed. There is not much more information I have at this time. I will be sure to keep your email address and as we test this kit over the next several months I will make sure to keep you informed. I myself am an avid home brewer and can understand how important an answer is when something like this happens.
Everything that you have mentioned in your email is being looked at. From the dark malt extracts, maltodextrin, temperature ratings, and brew statistics. We are devoted to making sure that future release of this particular kit will be consistent to every consumer.
Ryan


So not much more info, but maybe we will see some changes to the recipe or instructions?

Not very helpful, but thought I'd share.

Maybe I should throw an email their way as well. hell, maybe I should point them to the post about it that is above in this thread. I am not going to be whiny for the sake of being whiny, but I guess I ought to add my name or voice or word or whatever to their tally of people who have had the problem. I do appreciate the welcome and attention you have given. I think I found my brewing home.

Heck it's nothing, talking about how to make good beer is what we do for fun around here!