HERMS Design Needs Review

Well, here is my first attempt at a HERMS design:

http://www.hoppyhomebrewers.com/HERMS.pdf

This system would be a one tier setup using two pumps. I chose to dedicate a pump for the heat exchanger so that it can easily be modulated with a temperature controller. I want to try to find a way to reduce the number of valves, but I am not sure if I can based on my current design. The fewer I need the more likely I will replace them further down the road with solenoid valves. I also going to design my own temperature controller using a microcontroller and thermocouples. Then I can use a bluetooth transceiver to connect to my laptop where I can run a graphical user interface that controls and logs the entire brew process. Oh, and the entire rig will use electric heating. So that's my design in a nutshell, comment away!

Nobody likes me,
everybody hates me,
guess I'll go eat worms...

Jared, I don't hate you at all! Unfortunately, I don't know anything about your very nice graphic but I'll give you a dancing banana.

That looks about right. I don't quite understand why you need two pumps, even with a temperature controller. There's no problem with it, and it will afford you some flexibility, but you can save some cash but cutting one pump out. Of course, that won't make the plumbing any easier...

Check out www.arduino.cc for some microcontroller ideas.

Nurmey said:

Jared, I don't hate you at all! Unfortunately, I don't know anything about your very nice graphic but I'll give you a dancing banana.

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I am glad you liked my graphic, however your banana wasn't actually dancing for me. Hes just standing there...

Yuri_Rage said:

Check out www.arduino.cc for some microcontroller ideas.

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Thanks Yuri, I actually have a lot of experience with Microchip's microcontrollers so I think I should be set in that area.

You're from Mass Jared? Shame you are living in MD...

NoClueBrewMaster said:

You're from Mass Jared? Shame you are living in MD...

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Yeah, tell me about it. I definitely rather be living in MA but I couldn't turn down the job offer. I lived in Westborough which is in Worcester County. I noticed you are from Acton, my mom use to teach in the Elementary School there.

Alright, here's my updated design that uses only one pump as Yuri suggested:

http://www.hoppyhomebrewers.com/HERMS2.pdf

I like both designs, and both look like they'll work well.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't necessarily trying to dissuade you from using two pumps. I just wanted to point out that you may be able to save yourself some money by using only one. A second pump might come in handy from time to time, but, as your second design shows, it's not required.

As an experiencec HERMS user, I'll add my .02.

first off, nice design. The only critique I have is that you aren't flushing/pumping your heat exchange coil with sparge water. I personally do this in order to rinse out that last bit of wort trapped in the coil, and to prevent gunk buildup over time. Before I started doing this, I actually had my heat exchange coil clot off with a dehydrated, syrupy plug that had to be flushed with hot tap water before I could use it. This was an unexpected, timely, messy, and frustrating delay in that particular brew day.

So, when I'm ready to sparge, I merely disconnect the hose from the MLT, and hook it up to the HLT, then pump out of the HLT, through the heating coil again, then into the MLT. In this way, the heated sparge water is going through the coil and is cleaning it out and delivering that last few tiny gravity points at the same time. The next time you brew, your heating coil will already be clean!!

Your valves and manifold-type setup shows good thought, though, and it'll work as is. Thought I'd share my personal experiences.

Yuri_Rage said:

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't necessarily trying to dissuade you from using two pumps. I just wanted to point out that you may be able to save yourself some money by using only one. A second pump might come in handy from time to time, but, as your second design shows, it's not required.

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Yuri, originally I was actually trying to decide between one pump or two. I think it makes more sense to start off with one pump for now, to reduce cost and complexity. I can always add an additional pump further down the road with the current design.

IRV Brewing said:

So, when I'm ready to sparge, I merely disconnect the hose from the MLT, and hook it up to the HLT, then pump out of the HLT, through the heating coil again, then into the MLT. In this way, the heated sparge water is going through the coil and is cleaning it out and delivering that last few tiny gravity points at the same time. The next time you brew, your heating coil will already be clean!!

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Thanks, that's great advice. Do you have a good up-close shot of your setup? It sounds like you chose to use hoses for transfer instead of copper piping.

Jared311 said:

Thanks, that's great advice. Do you have a good up-close shot of your setup? It sounds like you chose to use hoses for transfer instead of copper piping.

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I did choose hoses. . . . or rather, B3 chose my hoses (Its a slightly modified B3 setup). I do find, however, that the hoses are easy to clean and store, and cheap to maintain. If I had actually designed my system, or if I ever design one myself, I'll probably use hoses.

As a side note, I'm getting a new B3 setup (the 2100) which has two pumps. Again, I agree with Yuri--not entirely necessary, but hey, its coming with them. Not like I have a choice.

I'm confussed as to how you will pump your runoff to the kettle and sparge with the same pump at the same time and thru the same pipes.

If he's batch sparging, one pump will work fine. You don't have to do both at the same time.

FSR402 said:

I'm confussed as to how you will pump your runoff to the kettle and sparge with the same pump at the same time and thru the same pipes.

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This was my observation as well. With a single tier system, you MUST have 2 pumps. If you want to use 1 pump, then one of your processes must use gravity - either gravity feed from the mash tun into the kettle, or gravity feed from the HLT into the mash tun. Your choice.

Also, as an experienced HERMS user, pumping your sparge water through your HX coil on it's way to the mash tun during the sparge is definitely a good idea.

The design is a bit "valve happy", but if you don't want to change out hoses during the brew session, that's pretty much how it has to be. I can tell you from experience that keeping all the valves straight during the brew session can be a trial. Give some thought to temporary connections, like one to pump water into the mash tun from the HLT, which might eliminate a valve. Just a thought.

You are definitely doing the right thing, drawing pictures, making lists, and asking questions. I can't tell you how many brewers I have seen that just start buying stuff with only a vague semblance of a plan. Best to have all your ducks in a row before spending any money.

Prosit!

I was planning on doing batch sparging, but you guys make a great point. I am not leaving any room open if I plan to switch to continuous sparge. I really like the idea of a single tier system so maybe I will go with a two pump design.

I guess I need to look more into using hoses or not as well. I was going to use copper piping with insulation to help prevent additional heat loss during transfers. Could someone post a detailed picture of their HERMS thats uses hoses instead? I am confused as to how you accomplish this. Does each of your vessels just have a few quick disconnects and then you just have a few hoses that you reconfigure as you go?

tnlandsailor said:

With a single tier system, you MUST have 2 pumps.

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Sorry, but I beg to differ. I have a single tier with a single pump. Works great. I don't have any need for a second pump.

I have a single tier system and I use two pumps because I fly sparge. I use silicone tubing because it's easy to see if it's got any nasties inside.

I also pump the sparge liquor through the heat exchanger coil.

Nice looking diagrams. When are you going to start building?

/Phil.

Seveneer said:

When are you going to start building?

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I have already begun building:
* Cut the tops off of three kegs
* Drilled the holes for the valves, thermometers, and site glasses
* Built the site glasses
* Ordered the thermometers, ball valves, couplers, and nipples

Next I need to determine the rest of the necessary holes:
* Two holes for the heat exchanger in the HLT
* One hole in the MLT for hot water intake
* One hole in the boiler for hot wort intake

Finally, when I feel comfortable with the design I will drill the holes and prepare for welding.

After that, I will have a ton of work. I will try to document my progress and throw in some pictures once I upgrade to a lifetime supporter. :rockin:

I like the 2 pump version myself. With the wort going through the coil immersed in the boiling water does it raise the temp of the mash quick enough? What about having the wort recerculate from the mash tun and strait back into the it with direct fire under it? Of course there would have to be at least 1 to 2 inch of space between the grain bed and the bottom of the mash tun being directly fired. I think the Brutus 10 is set up that way.

2 pumps are required only if you want to:
- fly sparge
- recirculate both wort and ice water when chilling

The method of heating wort (HERMS/RIMS/Direct-fire) to either raise or maintain temps is a separate issue. They all work fine and achieve the same result.

Lil' Sparky said:

Sorry, but I beg to differ. I have a single tier with a single pump. Works great. I don't have any need for a second pump.

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I stand corrected. If you have a single tier and plan to add sparge water at the same time you are draining from the mash to the kettle, you will need the second pump. Either that, or you are manually adding water to the mash with a bucket or something?

So what type of hose do you all suggest I use? It would be nice to find a transparent hose to monitor transfers and ensure the lines are clean after clean up.

I found this stuff which is pretty cheap but it isn't transparent:

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...USPlastic&category_name=18314&product_id=8434