Adding roasted malts/barley late in mash

I've read that some like to add the dark roasted malts (and barley) late in the mash saying that it yields a smoother flavor. Anybody experience smoother flavor from late roasted-malt additions? How late in the mash do you add them?

I'm going to be making an Oatmeal Stout soon (w/ 1.5-2 lb flaked oats) and plan to do a B-glucan rest at ~110 F, then a 2-step Hochkurz mash after that (short rest at 145 F, then up to 160 F for the remainder). Not sure when is the best time to add the RB and Chocolate malt. Tentatively was going to add them as I'm infusing up to 160...but that rest at 160 will be at least 30 minutes, prob a little longer.

I do lots of reading about brewing processes and I've never heard/read about that anywhere.

If you can find the reference I'd be interested in reading it.

I can't remember HB99. It might come to me if I stop thinking about it.

I have done this before, but under a single infusion mash process. From the advice from a member in my club, with his experience making the roasted character less harsh, astringent, or acrid, which can sometimes develop.

I added them in the last 15 minutes of the mash, and would think that would be where I would start, even at 160.

This also helps control the mash pH a little better, since by the time you add the grains, conversion should be complete (but I don't know if this is really the case with your 145-160 combination).

PseudoChef said:

I have done this before, but under a single infusion mash process. From the advice from a member in my club, with his experience making the roasted character less harsh, astringent, or acrid, which can sometimes develop.

I added them in the last 15 minutes of the mash, and would think that would be where I would start, even at 160.

This also helps control the mash pH a little better, since by the time you add the grains, conversion should be complete (but I don't know if this is really the case with your 145-160 combination).

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Thanks PseudoChef. I had considered the mash pH variable...I won't have added the most acidic malts until the mash is almost over. I think I know how to deal with that though. Conversion should be all but complete just 10-15 minutes after I hit 160 (if not quicker). The remainder of the rest is just to make sure I get the hard-to-get-to starches and because of this comment in Kaiser's Hochkurz Infusion Mash write-up:

The dextrinization rest at 70-72C (158-172F) needs to be held until the mash is iodine negative but may be extended to 45-60 min. Many authors contribute head retention and mouthfeel benefits to extending this rest.

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I recall reading about this within the Black Tuesday (IPA) thread. Don't mean to change the subject but, how would one determine the proper water profile to use when following this type of tecnhinque. Should you determine the profile (SRM) prior to adding the roast malts or overall SRM?

brybarrett said:

I recall reading about this within the Black Tuesday (IPA) thread. Don't mean to change the subject but, how would one determine the proper water profile to use when following this type of tecnhinque. Should you determine the profile (SRM) prior to adding the roast malts or overall SRM?

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That's pretty much what I plan to do. Basically, treat the water as if the roasted barley and chocolate malt weren't there. I probably won't go all the way to that extreme...but close.

There is a chance that extraction of flavor compounds from that dark malt could be time dependent. Whether you do or don't extract something and more importantly: if it tastes good... It's up to you.

It might be too early to say, but how did this go? I've got an 1.050 Oatmeal Stout that's 2 months from brew day and I don't know what the oats contributed and the half pound of the 500L roasted barley is becoming a flavor I'm not digging...it's covered up the half pound each of chocolate and crystal. Mine was a single infusion, creates a nice head but goes completely away so the Hochkurz schedule sounds interesting. Did your pH work out with the late addition grains? Maybe I need to let this age a couple more months.

I tried it on a Brown, Robust Porter, and an Oatmeal Stout. None are ready to drink yet so I don't know how they came out. The Brown is sitting in a corny waiting for a spot to open up in the keezer. The Porter is in a 5.75 gal barrel and the O-stout is still in the fermenter.

The pH was fine until I added the dark grains and then I added a little Baking Soda at the same time as the dark grains on the Porter and O-stout. I forgot to measure pH after the dark grains in the Brown but it was only a tiny bit of chocolate malt. In another thread, Kaiser warned about the boil pH being too low so that's why I added the Baking Soda.

On the few dark beers I have mashed so far, I haven't detected any harshness from them and I have had the dark malts in the whole 60 mins. If you use some 5.2, you wont have to worry about tannin extraction anyway.

14thstreet said:

It might be too early to say, but how did this go? I've got an 1.050 Oatmeal Stout that's 2 months from brew day and I don't know what the oats contributed and the half pound of the 500L roasted barley is becoming a flavor I'm not digging...it's covered up the half pound each of chocolate and crystal. Mine was a single infusion, creates a nice head but goes completely away so the Hochkurz schedule sounds interesting. Did your pH work out with the late addition grains? Maybe I need to let this age a couple more months.

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A half pound of roasted barley? (In a 5gal batch?) That sounds like a lot! PLUS a half pound of chocolate malt? Hardcore.

I've used a full pound of roast barley (no chocolate) in an O-stout (not even a high gravity brew) and it was great. Half pound of each doesn't sound like a lot to me at all.

mrkeeg said:

A half pound of roasted barley? (In a 5gal batch?) That sounds like a lot! PLUS a half pound of chocolate malt? Hardcore.

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Depends on the brew. I did 1/4# in my last Irish Red and it wasn't close to enough.

mrkeeg said:

A half pound of roasted barley? (In a 5gal batch?) That sounds like a lot! PLUS a half pound of chocolate malt? Hardcore.

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My imperial stout has 1.25 lb Roasted Barley, .75 lb Chocolate and .25 lb Black Patent in a 5 gallon batch. And its mighty tasty

Gremlyn1 said:

Depends on the brew. I did 1/4# in my last Irish Red and it wasn't close to enough.

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Are we using the same stuff here? What I get is called "Crisp roast barley" It is black and shiny like coffee beans. Some of my recipes I measure it in by the 'pinch'...

I used 3 oz of it in an attempt to get a "red ale", and even that little amount made it a rich, dark brown. (There was some cara red and dark crystal malt in there too... )