Pitching Rate

I'm brewing up an IPA on Saturday and I'm going to get a starter going tonight. I've already smacked the Wyeast smackpack to get it going a bit.

The expected OG of the IPA is 1.067. According to the Mr. Malty Pitching Rate Calculator it says I should have a starter of around 3.45 liters. That sounds ridiculously large to me. It's almost another entire gallon!

What I'm wondering is, should I make a starter of that size and then just decant the liquid and only pitch the slurry? Do you guys make your starters this big when dealing with a beer of this gravity?

I’ve been trying to make sense of the starter business myself.

I’m sure you’re looking for more seasoned brewers, but I’ll tell you what I’d do. (ie. What I’m going to do.)

I’d do exactly as you suggest. I’d make a 3.5 L starter 2 days before pitching and decant the liquid prior, pitching only the slurry. But I think it’s somewhat important to give the starter a couple days for the yeast to settle. If the yeast is still fairly well in suspension, you’d end up decanting yeast as well as starter wort, and you don’t want that.

A gallon? That's nuthin. I made a starter a couple weeks ago for 10 gallons of 1.070 Helles Bock...started with 2 vials of WLP833 in a 4 liter starter, let it ferment out, then chilled, decanted, and added another 4 liters. Pitching rate is, along with fermentation temp and sanitation, absurdly important. While JZ's calculator errs on the high side, I don't think it'd be a good idea to go with too much less. Just boil up 400g of DME in 4L of water, and be done with it. That's not even a pound! What do you pay per pound for extract...a few bucks? So you're talking about maybe 2 bucks to make sure your beer is better. Do it!

And yes, ferment it out, crash-cool it, then decant off the spent wort and just add the slurry. You don't want that starter wort in your main beer, as it will throw off your calcs and possibly be detrimental to the quality just because the growth phase in the starter might have created some unwanted compounds.

I'm also very interested in re-using the slurry from a previous batch.

The genius part about that is you can tell your wife that by brewing two weekends in a row, you're saving money.

It's interesting though... when I get my numbers from Mr. Malty, it seems like he's asking me to use a lot less yeast slurry doing it that way (as opposed to making a starter from scratch). I plugged in 1.072 for the Weizenbock I plan on brewing this weekend and it told me I only needed 200mL of slurry (after I estimated a fairly thin yeast concentration of about 1.5). Whereas from scratch I'm making a 3.6L starter, which would probably result in more than 200mL of slurry.

Or would it? I guess I don't know.

Last weekend I re-pitched my WL001 into a 70GU IPA using Mr. Malty's calculator, where I used 150ml of the slurry, And it worked perfectly. I was a little concerned because it was a 200+ IBU beer.

Sigh. I guess I knew the answer before asking. I'm going to have to find something quick that can become a 1 gallon starter vessel.

If you don't want to have such a larger starter, you could buy another smack pack, which would lower the required starter volume.

Just an option.

-Steve

Sigh. I guess I knew the answer before asking. I'm going to have to find something quick that can become a 1 gallon starter vessel.

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Pickle jars work in a pinch...and can be had for about $5 and you get a gallon of pickles in the deal.

BNVince said:

Sigh. I guess I knew the answer before asking. I'm going to have to find something quick that can become a 1 gallon starter vessel.

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Those 1-gallon glass jugs that apple cider sometimes is sold in are perfect, if you don't have an LHBS. If you DO have an LHBS, they might have flasks. Mine has 5L erlenmeyers...

SavageSteve said:

If you don't want to have such a larger starter, you could buy another smack pack, which would lower the required starter volume.

Just an option.

-Steve

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Or you could split it up into 2 vessels. Smack packs is x-pensive!

I was thinking about one of those big glass wine jugs. I think Carlo Rossi is the brand. Maybe my dad has one laying around somewhere.

Evan! said:

What do you pay per pound for extract...a few bucks? So you're talking about maybe 2 bucks to make sure your beer is better. Do it!

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Actually it's close to $5 a pound. Over $5 if you get everything online like I have to. I'm thinking of just mashing a couple of gallons and freezing or canning it for starters.

wildwest450 said:

Actually it's close to $5 a pound. Over $5 if you get everything online like I have to. I'm thinking of just mashing a couple of gallons and freezing or canning it for starters.

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Jeeezus....prices is crazee! Even still...let's say it's $4 of DME for a 5 gallon batch. What alternative does the OP have? It's either spend that $4, or underpitch.

Or you could just make your beers a little bigger than usual and reserve the last couple of quarts of running (or whatever) and use that. I decided I didn't want those last runnings in my kettle anyway and dumping it seemed a sin. So every batch I save the last couple of quarts and just freeze it for later. If it's too low gravity I just boil it down a bit. I typ reuse a cake at least once so I don't really need a starter for every batch (that's why 2 qt. reserved per batch ends up being enough).

I usually wash all of my yeast after every beer which leaves me with a lot of slurry. I make a small starter just to "wake up" the yeast I've saved and I've always had great success.

This is a new strain I'm using (pacman) that's why I need a big starter.

You know, Mr Malty told me I needed almost a 3L starter for my 5 gal ESB that's about 1.056. I figured since the White Labs yeast vials are supposed to be good for pitching straight to a medium gravity 5 gal batch, if I put together a small starter to just wake the yeasties up and then made it a little bigger so that I could also pitch into my 2.5 gal red ale the next day, everything would work out fine. And it did. Both brews started bubbling within an hour of pitching and have been going gangbusters ever since.

So did I do my brews an injustice by 'under pitching' them? Am I going to notice a big difference? I think I'd like to try an experiment some day soon and make 2 identical batches, one with a starter from liquid yeast and one without just to see what, if anything, the difference is. Maybe after my competition brews are done I will give it a shot.

If you get a stir plate you won't need to make ridiculous sized starters anymore.

So did I do my brews an injustice by 'under pitching' them?

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Not necessarily Gremlyn. It will affect the flavor profile but not always in a bad way. Classic example is a hefeweizen which often benefits from slight under-pitching. But this is all tied in with the fermentation temperature and wort aeration.

If you can't find any thing too, just brew a smaller beer this week, and then rack it next week, wash the yeast and pitch a slurry it into your big beer.

then you can split that yeast cake into four or five pint jars and store them for a couple more batches in the next couple months, or just toss them.

Saccharomyces said:

If you get a stir plate you won't need to make ridiculous sized starters anymore.

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+1

A stir plate can reduce the overall volume of starter needed by quite a bit.

carbon111 said:

+1
A stir plate can reduce the overall volume of starter needed by quite a bit.

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You ain't kiddin'! Mr. Malty says you can go nearly all the way up to 1.100 before you need more than a 1L starter.

Them stir plate things were a little expensive, last I looked. But if one is not harvesting one's yeast on a regular basis, one may find that buying one pays for itself in the end.

Judochop said:

You ain't kiddin'! Mr. Malty says you can go nearly all the way up to 1.100 before you need more than a 1L starter.

Them stir plate things were a little expensive, last I looked. But if one is not harvesting one's yeast on a regular basis, one may find that buying one pays for itself in the end.

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you can track them down for cheep on ebay, I think i payed $20 for mine, or plenty of people have DYI'ed them with a 110VAC fan motor, super glue, magnets, and a dimmer switch.

but any way, it's a must have.

Bsquared said:

you can track them down for cheep on ebay, I think i payed $20 for mine, or plenty of people have DYI'ed them with a 110VAC fan motor, super glue, magnets, and a dimmer switch.

but any way, it's a must have.

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Thanks! For $20 (even $40) it seems like it'd be very worth the price.

$16 - $40 at www.stirplates.com, depending on how much DIY you want to do.

I most always made a 3 litre starter for an 11 gallon batch in a one gallon glass jug. THEN I started hanging around here and now I have a one litre and 2 litre flask and stir plate. I am making a starter tonight for an 11 gallon batch I am brewing on Saturday. I will step it up to 2 litres on the stir plate. Mr. Malty sez this should be right.

I always used a big starter because I open fermented and wanted the yeast to take hold of things asap. Now (since I have been hanging around here) I have a 7 gal conical and another one on order.......

The Oatmeal Stout I am brewing saturday will be fermented in a converted keg with a plain ol lid on it. Just like the last batch I made and it was the best beer I brewed in a LONG time.

David

Well the vessel I currently have can only hold a little over 1.5 liters with enough headroom for some krausen so I made a starter with that earlier. It's been in there for 4 hours and the airlock is already chugging along.

It may not be up to Mr. Malty's standards but it's going to have to do.

Evan! said:

Jeeezus....prices is crazee! Even still...let's say it's $4 of DME for a 5 gallon batch. What alternative does the OP have? It's either spend that $4, or underpitch.

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Depending on what yeast the OP is using, he might be able to use a dry yeast equivalent. US-04 OR US-05 would probably both work for a IPA depending if he was going English or American style. Just my 2 cents.

Shay said:

Depending on what yeast the OP is using, he might be able to use a dry yeast equivalent. US-04 OR US-05 would probably both work for a IPA depending if he was going English or American style. Just my 2 cents.

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Of course dry is always an option...but the man already bought a pack of liquid.

Evan!

Stupid question here about the process and decanting...

How long do you crash cool before decanting?
How do you decant? Just pour out the stuff on top, leaving the yeast on bottom?

Thanks.

Eric

EricCSU said:

Evan!

Stupid question here about the process and decanting...

How long do you crash cool before decanting?
How do you decant? Just pour out the stuff on top, leaving the yeast on bottom?

Thanks.

Eric

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I crash cool until the liquid turns darker...which means that it has cleared up, because light isn't reflecting off it quite as much. This usually takes a day to a day and a half at ~38f. As for decanting, you just very carefully pour off the liquid, until you start seeing some slurry in the stream. You don't have to be anal about getting all the liquid off, just do the best you can. It's better to have a little extra liquid left in the starter than to pour viable cells down the drain...

Question for stirplaters: For 5-6 gal. batches, what size flask(s) do you consider essential? I assume it's worth it to get a nice flask that you can heat and has a flat bottom?

SpanishCastleAle said:

Question for stirplaters: For 5-6 gal. batches, what size flask(s) do you consider essential? I assume it's worth it to get a nice flask that you can heat and has a flat bottom?

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Regardless of batch size, you should get the biggest you can find/afford. Not only are boilovers very VERY quick and nasty in the flask, but if you ever decide to go bigger or are making a very high-OG batch, it's nice to have. Personally, I see no reason to get anything smaller than 4000mL...optimally, you should get the 5000mL like I did. It's only ~$35, and you'll be very happy you have the extra volume.

Evan! said:

Regardless of batch size, you should get the biggest you can find/afford. Not only are boilovers very VERY quick and nasty in the flask, but if you ever decide to go bigger or are making a very high-OG batch, it's nice to have. Personally, I see no reason to get anything smaller than 4000mL...optimally, you should get the 5000mL like I did. It's only ~$35, and you'll be very happy you have the extra volume.

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+1 bigger is better, but also with a lager flask, you have more surface area and better gas exchange, which will give you more and healthier yeast for pitching. Though with the stir bar set up, you will be doing way better with what ever size flask you choose.

I found my 6000ml Erlenmeyer one on ebay for 40 including shipping.

I can't see any bigger than a 2 Litre flask, but to each his own.

1 litre is supposed to be big enough for a 5 gallon batch of regular gravity, I do some 11 gallon batches, so I went to a 2 litre.

The 2 good things about a stir plate is you get MORE YEAST (double) from the same size starter and it seems to be twice as fast. I used to get my starter ready 3 to 5 days before brewing now all I need is 1 to 2 days.

I been hanging around here too much....

BUT my brewing has improved!

David

Wow -- I can't believe the size of the starters some of you folks pitch. I rarely make a beer less than 8% ABV, and I always make a 12oz starter in a beer bottle. I've never had yeast-related off-flavors and I've never had a stuck fermentation.

Then again, I mainly brew belgian styles where esters etc are desirable -- I'm looking for flavor from the yeast, not transparency.

The Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator seems insane to me.

I use a 2000 ml flask, but I'm looking to get a 3000 ml one so I can make up to a 2.8 liter starter if I need it... I've been using older yeast lately, so the bigger starter helps get me to Mr. Malty's recommended cell count. In fact, I probably "underpitched" my last two batched because I didn't have enough room to make the 2.5 liter starter his calculator said to make. I'm not worried, though.

-Steve

The last lager I brewed was 1.046 and required a 3 liter starter on a stir plate, without the stir plate is was something like 5 or 6 liters.
For what its worth, I plan my brews 2 or 3 at a time, the first one low gravity, low hop and light color. Then I wash that yeast for the next brew, medium gravity, hops, and color. On the third time I wash it and brew the big boy, RIS, IPA, Doppelbock, what have you. It works out well and cuts down on the starters that I have to make.