Shame in chucking?

I'm a relatively new brewer, but I know what I want to drink.

I've brewed 16 batches since August 2012.

I started out with high hopes and and the bare minimum of equipment.

My first batch was dry extract with some steeped adjuncts. Brews 2-6 were liquid extract with adjuncts. By brew #7 I'd moved to all grain.

None of my non-all grain batches measured up. They didn't produce beer that I wanted to drink... so I threw them out (and 7 too). It's not that they were undrinkable. But a man can only drink so many beers, so I chose to drink commercial beer instead.

Since I've been reading this forum I think I've perceived a general sense of disproval of throwing away homebrew.

Is there shame in throwing away a drinakable beer that gives you no pleasure?

There is no shame. Lots of threads here say "never dump your beer!" I wholeheartedly disagree. It's your beer, do as you please. Some beers benefit greatly from age, which is the genesis of the "don't dump" mentality (let it age, see if it improves). However, if you have no hope for that batch ever becoming something you'd enjoy, just get rid of it and make something better.

sid_marx said:

Is there shame in throwing away a drinakable beer that gives you no pleasure?

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YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Actually,,,,,,, no,.....not really. You can do whatever the f@ck you want:fro:

Although, letting them age for a good long while might just have turned them into the best beers known to mankind

I wouldnt say shame really, but I just look at even bad batches as theres something to learn from each one, good and bad flavors.

Ostomo517 said:

I just look at even bad batches as there's something to learn from each one, good and bad flavors.

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+1
It is a learning process. I drain poured one (okay about half of a) batch after it never aged properly. Killed me to do it, but it wasn't a pleasure to drink.

How long had your beers aged before you dumped them? The shame would be you may have dumped young beer that might have tasted great in a few weeks or months...

Demus said:

How long had your beers aged before you dumped them? The shame would be you may have dumped young beer that might have tasted great in a few weeks or months...

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This is exactly what I was talking about in my first post. I disagree. If it tastes positively awful, age is not likely to help. If it tastes ok but not great, perhaps you should give it a little time. However, if you need the fermenter/keg/fridge/closet/etc or simply don't care to wait and see...just dump it out and start over. There is no shame. It's your beer.

Yuri_Rage said:

However, if you need the fermenter/keg/fridge/closet/etc or simply don't care to wait and see...just dump it out and start over. There is no shame. It's your beer.

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Yuri_Right. The hobby is Homebrewing, not beer drinking.

Yuri_Rage said:

This is exactly what I was talking about in my first post. I disagree. If it tastes positively awful, age is not likely to help. If it tastes ok but not great, perhaps you should give it a little time. However, if you need the fermenter/keg/fridge/closet/etc or simply don't care to wait and see...just dump it out and start over. There is no shame. It's your beer.

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He didn't say they were positively awful; he said "None of my non-all grain batches measured up". He also said he was a newer brewer, which are folks (I was too) who tend to be pretty impatient. Of course it's his beer to do with as he pleases, but I've tasted countless mediocre home-brews young that were fantastic when aged. Disagree and chuck all the green beer you want, I'm happier aging mine...

Moreover, "green beer" is flawed beer. If you need to age all of your beers in order for them to clean up, you need to reexamine your process. Likely, you should ferment at cooler temperatures so that off flavors never develop. I serve most of my beers within 3 weeks of the brew day, and some as early as a week. Of course, force carbonation is a key player in the quick turnaround, but I do not find that I need extended conditioning periods for most ales when fermented properly.

sid_marx said:

I've brewed 16 batches since August 2012.

My first batch was dry extract with some steeped adjuncts. . . By brew #7 I'd moved to all grain.

None of my non-all grain batches measured up. They didn't produce beer that I wanted to drink... so I threw them out (and 7 too).

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Demus said:

Disagree and chuck all the green beer you want, I'm happier aging mine...

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Green beer? Sounds to me like everything the OP dumped was 3-6 months old and that he's now gotten the process down. Time to move on!

Yuri_Rage said:

Moreover, "green beer" is flawed beer. If you need to age all of your beers in order for them to clean up, you need to reexamine your process. Likely, you should ferment at cooler temperatures so that off flavors never develop. I serve most of my beers within 3 weeks of the brew day, and some as early as a week. Of course, force carbonation is a key player in the quick turnaround, but I do not find that I need extended conditioning periods for most ales when fermented properly.

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Well good for you, some of us aren't so perfect. Personally I don't have an issue with "green" flavors either, but they are common. Even without the green flavor, aging still improves some styles quite a bit. I'm guessing you are going to post again disagreeing with me, but many many brewers will agree that aging benefits most beers. I'm not sure why you are so resistant to the possibility that a newer brewer may have been impatient and thrown a beer out that may have improved. It happens all the time....

AnOldUR said:

Green beer? Sounds to me like everything the OP dumped was 3-6 months old and that he's now gotten the process down. Time to move on!

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Where did you read 3 to 6 months? I just re-read his posts and didn't see anything about how long he aged it. Sid, care to chime in before these guys have me tarred and feathered? :cross:

Brewing since August 2012 . . . 16 batches total . . . dumped batches 1-7 . . .

AnOldUR said:

Brewing since August 2012 . . . 16 batches total . . . dumped batches 1-7 . . .

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This doesn't say how long he aged the beers he chucked, just how long he's been brewing. Am I missing something here?

What I read is that he just now dumped what was left of his old beers that were brewed up to six months ago. I could be wrong.

AnOldUR said:

What I read is that he just now dumped what was left of his old beers that were brewed up to six months ago. I could be wrong.

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I agree that if a beer isn't to your liking at 6 months, it's not going to change. I read he's been brewing for 6 months and has made 16 brews in that time frame. I doubt he brewed 16 times in one day and aged all of them, only to throw them all away in one day. But then, I could be wrong too!

Demus said:

aging benefits most beers.

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This is the part of your argument that is not true. Most styles, properly fermented, are at their peak within weeks or a few months. Beer, unlike wine, is best enjoyed fresh and young. On Saturday, an APA I brewed six weeks previous won a gold medal at a competition.

Of course there are styles designed to age - I aged a Wee Heavy with 10% abv for six months with good results. But most normal strength beer is ready to drink and at its peak within weeks of brewing.

I'm more interested in breaking the "never dump your beer" mantra that is so prevalent here. If beer is bad, call a spade a spade. Taste it. Examine it. If you have hope, age it. If not, dump it without fear of prejudice. Examine your process. Change one or two things, and try again.

I do agree that aging some beers can be beneficial. I strongly disagree that every batch must sit in the fermenter for weeks on end or that it must condition in any vessel (be it a bottle, keg, or additional fermenter) for a long period of time. It seems that many many brewers expect their beer to be "green" for a while, and that it is normal, when in fact, it is indicative of flawed processes.

Let's define "hope" for the new brewer and break it into two oversimplified categories:
Bready/yeasty flavors: likely caused by suspended yeast; usually disappear quickly - try cold crashing
Slight vegetal/fruit/butter/hot alcohol flavors: likely caused by volatile compounds produced during stressed fermentation; leave it in the fermenter for a week or two - if the off flavors subside, keg/bottle

Let's now define a few easy "dump" decisions:
Vinegar or sour flavor: infected beer; if it actually tastes good, just different, age it - otherwise, dump
Bandaid/medicinal flavor: chlorine/sanitizer content; almost never ages out - dump
Papery/wet cardboard flavor: oxidized beer; worsens with age - dump
Tastes so foul you're embarrassed you made it: dump

Of course these are very simplified explanations, and there is no golden rule. I do know of brewers who were sorely disappointed with their immediate results and wound up being pleasantly surprised weeks, months, or even years later. I just want folks to understand what is happening and why. I want brewers and this hobby move forward.

Demus said:

Disagree and chuck all the green beer you want, I'm happier aging mine...

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Putting on my BJCP judge hat, Demus, 'green' is a flaw that can be resolved in your brew process. To avoid green beer, you want to look at yeast management - are you pitching enough yeast, is the yeast healthy, are the temps right, is there enough oxygen for them?

Pappers_ said:

This is the part of your argument that is not true. Most styles, properly fermented, are at their peak within weeks or a few months. Beer, unlike wine, is best enjoyed fresh and young. On Saturday, an APA I brewed six weeks previous won a gold medal at a competition.

Of course there are styles designed to age - I aged a Wee Heavy with 10% abv for six months with good results. But most normal strength beer is ready to drink and at its peak within weeks of brewing.

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Did I say longer than a few months? My concern is that we may be talking about a new brewer who cracked a bottle a week after bottling, felt it wasn't up to snuff with a commercial example, and dumped it. If that were the case would you advise against that at least?

Demus, I think we're on the same page. We're not attacking you. In fact, you're doing a good job of rounding out the big picture.

No shame in chucking. Better to chuck the beer before you drink it than chucking it after you have drank it into the bushes

I have brewed a batch that just sucked while experimenting with stuff that was just horrible and I dumped it. No shame just a lesson learned of what I like. And life is to short to drink something you do not like when you can change a few things and brew great beer

I'm new to the hobby as well. I don't foresee myself ever dumping a batch if it's at all drinkable (i.e. not rancid). I'm to cheap for that. Just drink the not so good beers after a few of the good ones. Better yet, let some friends (or enemies if it's that bad) drink it. What tastes bad to you might be fine for someone else (me).

I think some new brewers taste the un-flocculated yeast in the new beer and think there's a flaw. I've been "cold crashing" with gelatin for a long time now, and kegging, so my beers clear almost overnight. But I do remember yeasty beers that tasted odd.

But I'm with you dumpers. I don't feel good about brewing when I've tried to drink a subpar beer. I'd rather go without, or drink commercial, than force something down.

I don't have any problem dumping a beer that I just don't like or turns out bad. I have brewed for a long time, and have gotten to a point where the vast majority of my beer turns out the way I hope it will. But, I probably still dump a batch or two a year. I brew often and usually have quite a bit of beer on hand. No way I am going to end up drinking crappy tasting beer or taking up precious shelf/keg space when I have good beer handy........

That reminds me . . . . .. I have about 30 bottles of 2 year old pumkin ale that has a date with my floor drain

Demus said:

many many brewers will agree that aging benefits most beers..

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I would suggest that aging improves some beers, not most. Some beers with big complex flavors do get better with age, as the flavors meld. Higher ABV beers (think Belgian triple) get better with age also.

But for many beers, aging just makes the beer older. Hop-forward styles like American IPAs and pale ales, or light styles like British mild, are often being consumed at my house by day 10-14 after brewing!

A well made beer doesn't need to "clean up", more than about 24 hours after FG is reached. Once it is clearing, it's ready to package. There really isn't any "green beer" flavor in much of it, and if there is acetaldehyde, it should still clean up quickly.

I haven't dumped many beers, but I have dumped a couple that I didn't have high hopes for. Some flavors just won't get better- chlorophenols, soapy flavors, infections, etc. If you recognize one of those, aging won't do much for it.

I figure why waste the calories and your liver on something you aren't going to enjoy? Life is too short to drink bad beer. I've had some batches that have been drinkable, but not something I want to have to drink through 5 gallons worth. With those I see if anyone I know is willing to take it home rather than dump it, but if I don't have any takers it goes down the drain. If it's something I'm just not happy with at all I don't hesitate at all to dump the entire batch.

Demus said:

Well good for you, some of us aren't so perfect. Personally I don't have an issue with "green" flavors either, but they are common. Even without the green flavor, aging still improves some styles quite a bit. I'm guessing you are going to post again disagreeing with me, but many many brewers will agree that aging benefits most beers. I'm not sure why you are so resistant to the possibility that a newer brewer may have been impatient and thrown a beer out that may have improved. It happens all the time....

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For those of us whose palates might not be fully developed, can someone define what 'green flavors' are? Thanks!

JimRausch said:

For those of us whose palates might not be fully developed, can someone define what 'green flavors' are? Thanks!

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Sometimes brewers equate 'green' with 'young' or 'not ready' beer, but that's really not accurate. Green is often a short-hand for a green apple flavor, kind of tart, a little edge to your teeth. Acetaldehyde is usually the cause. It is a fermentation product, a precursor to ethanol if I'm remembering right.

In any case, the key to not having acetaldehyde (or perceivable amounts of it) in your beer is fermentation management - enough healthy yeast pitched into oxygenated wort at the right temperature will usually avoid this problem.

If you end up with acetaldehyde, though, after active fermentation, the yeast will continue to work and will sometimes absorb some of it back. But its not perfect and if the acetaldehyde is prominant, longer aging will usually make the beer more palatable but will not get rid of the green apple flavor entirely.

Hope this helps!

I think a valid point being made by Demus is that, some of the more experienced brewers, that do have yeast starters/pitching, ferm. temp control, recipe calculation, etc. Etc. down to a fine art, would be well justified in dumping a batch that doesn't hit their level of expectation, but a novice brewer would probably benefit from allowing a bit more time for their brews to age because not having some of the fundamental processes well controlled can lead to a beer that might well overcome those shortcomings after some more maturation.

Ogri said:

I think a valid point being made by Demus is that, some of the more experienced brewers, that do have yeast starters/pitching, ferm. temp control, recipe calculation, etc. Etc. down to a fine art, would be well justified in dumping a batch that doesn't hit their level of expectation, but a novice brewer would probably benefit from allowing a bit more time for their brews to age because not having some of the fundamental processes well controlled can lead to a beer that might well overcome those shortcomings after some more maturation.

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Absolutely, well said. Sometimes the nuance you are raising gets lost in discussions here - longer aging may help make beer with flaws more palatable but it is not a substitute to learning how to avoid the flaws in the first place.

Sorry, double post. BTW, HBT is really quirky when using the iPad.

No shame at all. A bad beer is a bad beer. I had high hopes for a dark chocolate orange milk stout. It came out like soy and sunny d mixed together. All the time in the world wont help that beer. Tossed it and never looked back.

There's no shame in dumping a batch. I'm considering doing so with an IPA that I brewed last year with Cascade, Horizon, and Glacier hops - just way too much citrus and ended up with little body to back it up. It will be my first dumper in a long time. Since I've moved to yeast starters and temperature control with a freezer, my quality has increased dramatically and I've eliminated many if not all of the off-flavors that my early beers had. This one was a poor recipe, not poor brewing. Just learn from where you made your mistake and apply that to the next beer.

christopherrburns said:

No shame at all. A bad beer is a bad beer. I had high hopes for a dark chocolate orange milk stout. It came out like soy and sunny d mixed together. All the time in the world wont help that beer. Tossed it and never looked back.

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I must apologize in advance as the Scottish upbringing in me demands that I sn!gger a bit at the idea of that beer:fro:

Snisup said:

I'm new to the hobby as well. I don't foresee myself ever dumping a batch if it's at all drinkable (i.e. not rancid). I'm to cheap for that. Just drink the not so good beers after a few of the good ones. Better yet, let some friends (or enemies if it's that bad) drink it. What tastes bad to you might be fine for someone else (me).

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Once you start making batches with all-grain, you probably eventually will. At $20/5gals, it's not a huge loss if you make a **** recipe.

If you dump a bad beer, and there is no other homebrewer around to see it, did you really dump it at all?

I would suggest that you keep it untill you need the bottles/keg? If it still isn't good and you need to buy bottles for a new batch, ditch it. Just make sure no one else is watching!!!

I just want to throw out an idea. If u really just don't want it, would it be better in a stew or soup? Or a spray bottle for the grill? Or to soak some ribs? I might not drink it but I remember the story about the city going into the old Pearl Street brewery and smashing all the barrels flowing out beer into the sewer. NEVER! I say, but he'll it's yours, at minimum use it to water your garden!

I've dumped a couple of batches without (too much) remorse - a lime ale that was just too limey, and a blueberry that tasted great but simply didn't carb. If I were the OP, I'd keep a few bottles of each, taste them occasionally, and learn which improve and which don't. Nowadays I firmly believe that life is too short to drink bad beer, even your own.