Do you really trust using brass?

I know there is a way to "delead" the brass with peroxide and vinegar and I know alot of you use brass in your systems....but do you guys really feel safe doing so?

I'm not trying to start a debate or anything or sound like a pompous ass...not the case.

For the last two months I have been buying little by little all the pieces for my RIMS that were mocked up with brass (valves, nipples, flared pipe ends etc) and replacing them with SS pieces. It is pricey, but in my opinion worth my sanity (and health). Stainless is by far a superior material to brass....and a little harder than copper, which is also used for fermentors, transfer piping etc by brewers.

The way I look at it....if it was really safe to do so, then why don't all the high end brewing rigs you can buy or the big brewers use BRASS?

Just an opinion and interested to hear what you all think

I have no fear of brass at all. There's really no question that stainless is better, but how much better will forever be an endless debate. The bling value of SS is relatively high and that is important to many. Regarding the high end rigs; marketing is a major influence. You know, curb appeal and all that which is similar to the bling factor. The concern other than appearance usually has to do with the minuscule amount of lead that the brass contains. I have no way of testing for possible lead contamination in my beer or even my tap water for that matter. There is a lot of brass used in most home plumbing and I'm sure there's a bunch used at the water treatment plants and in the distribution lines. I'm not aware of any health issues directly related to those. Lead soldered connections on copper pipe and brass fittings was a much bigger concern. Lead solder is no longer used, but there is still a lot of old piping that did use it when originally installed. I really think that relative to the exposure we have due to contaminants in the air we breathe, the food we eat and probably the clothes we wear that the tiny exposure of anything harmful in brass is negligible. As I said, I have no way of testing and I am no expert on this stuff by any stretch, so it's just my personal opinion. I do use some brass and I don't worry about it at all. I would go with all SS if cost were not an issue, which it is at the moment. Someday I will probably make the switch, but I'm in no hurry. Global warming or the flu plague will probably get us before the lead does. Ya know, it's always somethin'.

"Ya know, it's always somethin'."

Hahaha ain't that the truth. I went that route just for the piece of mind. Granted I could have bought 5 brass ball valves for 30.00 instead of the five 3 piece SS valves for 125.00 or brass QD's instead of morebeers SS QD's etc etc. One thing is for sure, if I get something it isn't going to be from making beer! As it stands now, I have alot of copper and alot of stainless and an empty pocket!!!!!!!!!!!

Take Care

I trust John Palmer's metallurgy knowledge. His opinion is that it isn't even worth the effort to pickle the brass parts.

Another metallurgist here. I don't pickle brass fittings either. The total quantity of lead that could potentially leach out of a brass fitting into beer is miniscule.

If I were selecting materials for a start-up brewery, the reason I'd avoid brass is that it doesn't stand up well to strong acids, like you see used in brewery cleaning processes. For homebrew-scale use, where we only occasionally (if at all) use strong acids as part of the cleaning process, I don't see it as a problem.

Good stuff...

I love brass, I just tell people it is gold plating, wayyy cooler than SS.

Got it! At this point there is no turning back. The damage is done

Two more flared to pipe threaded fittings and all of the stuff that touches my sweet beer will be SS.

Lead is heavy right? I'll just start using a long secondary....

I'm sure I got more poison over the years welding up all those Tri-Clover and Ladish fittings to stainless pipe when I worked in a food processing plant than I'd ever get out of some brass fittings with a little beer running through them.

The ones that I was really concerned with were the ones that would boil along with the wort...not that it matters but.....

If brass were that bad for you there would be a warning label on it.

This is from FoodService.com

4-101.14 Copper, Use Limitation.*
(A) Except as specified in ¶ (B) of this section, copper and copper alloys such as brass may not be used in contact with a FOOD that has a pH below 6 such as vinegar, fruit JUICE, or wine or for a fitting or tubing installed between a backflow prevention device and a carbonator.
(B) Copper and copper alloys may be used in contact with beer brewing ingredients that have a pH below 6 in the prefermentation and fermentation steps of a beer brewing operation such as a brewpub or microbrewery
Annex - 4-101.14 Copper, Use Limitation.*
High concentrations of copper are poisonous and have caused foodborne illness. When copper and copper alloy surfaces contact acidic foods, copper may be leached into the food. Carbon dioxide may be released into a water supply because of an ineffective or nonexistent backflow prevention device between a carbonator and copper plumbing components. The acid that results from mixing water and carbon dioxide
leaches copper from the plumbing components and the leachate is then transferred to beverages, causing copper poisoning. Backflow prevention devices constructed of copper and copper alloys can cause, and have resulted in, the leaching of both copper and lead into carbonated beverages.
Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc and contains lead which is used to combine the two elements. Historically, brass has been used for items such as pumps, pipe fitting, and goblets. All 3 constituents are subject to leaching when they contact acidic foods, and food poisoning has resulted from such contact.
The steps in beer brewing include malting, mashing, fermentation, separation of the alcoholic beverage from the mash, and rectification. During mashing, it is essential to lower the pH from its normal 5.8 in order to optimize enzymatic activity. The pH is commonly lowered to 5.1-5.2, but may be adjusted to as low as 3.2. The soluble extract of the mash (wort) is boiled with hops for 1 to 21/2 hours or more. After boiling, the wort
is cooled, inoculated with brewers yeast, and fermented. The use of copper equipment during the prefermentation and fermentation steps typically result in some leaching of copper.
Because copper is an essential nutrient for yeast growth, low levels of copper are metabolized by the yeast during fermentation. However, studies have shown that copper levels above 0.2 mg/L are toxic or lethal to the yeast. In addition, copper levels as low as 3.5 mg/L have been reported to cause symptoms of copper poisoning in humans. Therefore, the levels of copper necessary for successful beer fermentation (i.e., below 0.2 mg/L) do not reach a level that would be toxic to humans.
Today, domestic beer brewers typically endeavor to use only stainless steel or stainless steel-lined copper equipment (piping, fermenters, filters, holding tanks, bottling machines, keys, etc.) in contact with beer following the hot brewing steps in the beer making process. Some also use pitch-coated oak vats or glass-lined steel vats following the hot brewing steps. Where copper equipment is not used in beer brewing, it is common practice to add copper (along with zinc) to provide the nutrients essential to the yeast for successful fermentation.

My head is spinning. Thanks for the information!

JVD_X, sounds like copper or brass shouldn't be used for storing or serving beverages that are already carbonated? Is this correct? Carbonation creates carbolic acid and lowers the pH of the liquid, is this enough to cause harmful levels of copper over the long term if you are serving carbonated beer through/from copper components? Just wondering b/c I'm currently using a brass component to go from my sankey tap to a 1/4 flare fitting.

shek said:

JVD_X, sounds like copper or brass shouldn't be used for storing or serving beverages that are already carbonated? Is this correct? Carbonation creates carbolic acid and lowers the pH of the liquid, is this enough to cause harmful levels of copper over the long term if you are serving carbonated beer through/from copper components? Just wondering b/c I'm currently using a brass component to go from my sankey tap to a 1/4 flare fitting.

Click to expand...

I'd get rid of it as soon as you can. When I used copper and brass with carbonated water, it left a very noticeable taste in the water... i switched to stainless pretty quick when I found out what carbonic acid does to those metals.

Shhhhh. I think it's OK *** Don't tell anyone***

It's done, last two pieces bought...............no more brass in my RIMS system. Go ahead and send the brass police I dare you


Thanks for everyone's help!

Joe

I am an all stainless guy myself, it just sets my mind at ease.

You suckers still use stainless?

All platinum, all the way baby! Get your butt into some noble metals!

:rockin:

The alcohol in the beer likely is more harmful to you than the lead in the brass fittings. The reason the high-end systems and commercial systems use stainless is because the stainless fittings will last damn near forever. Commercial operations do not want to hold things up because they have to start changing out the brass parts.

Still, if it gives you peace of mind, go stainless. Other than the extra cost, there's no reason not to.


TL

there is most likely more lead in your tap water than whatever would come from a brass fitting. Specially if your home was built before the 70's even if it wasn't just think of the miles and miles of pipe that your water travels if you are on town/city water. Think there might be some lead in the joints or even some lead pipe still in the ground? You can bet there is and if you have a well you could still have some lead just from erosion of natural lead deposits in the soil . I still use lead to customize bikes and I.m still somewhat normal..

Since taking the lead out of the paint and from almost everywhere else, where else do I get my daily allowance of lead?

azscoob said:

Since taking the lead out of the paint and from almost everywhere else, where else do I get my daily allowance of lead?

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Give us this day our daily lead...:fro: