Black IPA?

Something has been bothering me with calling an india pale ale a black india pale ale. I consider myself fairly open minded with names for beer and even types or categories that get a bit off track. But how is black somehow pale?
Easy solution:

IBA

Shoot me down.
What doth yon community say?
And yes, I do a late hop addition to the dryer ensuring fresh aroma and not bitter undies.

iba isn't admissable as a category, i guess, but black ipa is a subcategory

lumpher said:

iba isn't admissable as a category, i guess, but black ipa is a subcategory

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Why? India Black Ale?

the bBJCP came out with the style guidelines...its called American-style Black Ale....so let's quit the debate already.

Cascasdia Dark Ale is a much better name. Its dark, the hops generally come from area the area of the cascasde mountain range. Oh and its an ale, makes sense. Much better than Dark Pale Ale anyway.

I think this may have been mentioned somewhere before though...

mcaple1 said:

the bBJCP came out with the style guidelines...its called American-style Black Ale....so let's quit the debate already.

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Did not know that. I can dig it. Didn't mean to get anyone jacked up about it.
Thanks for the info.

I'm from nowhere near the northwest. india in the name doesn't make sense. the only things the style has in common with the traditional english IPA is that it's pretty bitter, and it's an ale. there's far more different than in common. having the word "pale" in a dark beer is just f**king retarded.

I think proper respect is due to the pacific northwest community for much of the re-invigoration of craft beer throughout the world, and it's not too arrogant to say they do indeed deserve to have this style named for their region, their hops, their new-ish brewing tradition.

Cascadia Dark Ale is the perfect term for the style.

mcaple1 said:

the bBJCP came out with the style guidelines...its called American-style Black Ale....so let's quit the debate already.

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mcaple1, if this topic hits a sore spot with you, please ignore it. some new brewers want to learn

mcaple1 said:

the bBJCP came out with the style guidelines...its called American-style Black Ale....so let's quit the debate already.

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When and where? I have not seen any guidelines newer than 2008, and the 2008 guidelines don't recognize the style at all.

slowbie said:

When and where? I have not seen any guidelines newer than 2008, and the 2008 guidelines don't recognize the style at all.

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They haven't, that's why these entries all go into category 23, specialty beer.

thegerm said:

I'm from nowhere near the northwest. india in the name doesn't make sense. the only things the style has in common with the traditional english IPA is that it's pretty bitter, and it's an ale. there's far more different than in common. having the word "pale" in a dark beer is just f**king retarded.

I think proper respect is due to the pacific northwest community for much of the re-invigoration of craft beer throughout the world, and it's not too arrogant to say they do indeed deserve to have this style named for their region, their hops, their new-ish brewing tradition.

Cascadia Dark Ale is the perfect term for the style.

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Because of the use of cascade hops? What should a home brewer who uses say amarillo call it then? Why not IBA? Is that so bad? Agreed, pale seems weird naming next to black in beer.
If anyone plays the race card, from either side, go suck it. I am the color rad.

Yes they have...I have the 2011 guidelines in my hand right now...and I'm not sore, and I have no issues with people learning...just wanted to point out that with regard to the BJCP...this debate is officially over. I agree that Cascadian Dark Ale would have been a better route to go, bringing beer style names back to regional areas like it used to be.

I have an official hard copy...but here is something to please your palette.

mcaple1 said:

http://www.wvcbas.com/beer-news/beo...ociation-announces-2011-beer-style-guidelines

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Ok, I'm learning, but why does West Virginia decide? Is it not a style for all? I get it if West Virginians use the the name Cascadian Black Ale but about the rest of us? I am growing cascade here in Iowa, if I darken up my grain bill is it Cascadian Dark ale if I don't use cascade? I get the standards, but this seems weird.

Why not IBA?

It's for everyone!

moinkyschmoink said:

Ok, I'm learning, but why does West Virginia decide? Is it not a style for all? I get it if West Virginians use the the name Cascadian Black Ale but about the rest of us? I am growing cascade here in Iowa, if I darken up my grain bill is it Cascadian Dark ale if I don't use cascade? I get the standards, but this seems weird.

Why not IBA?

It's for everyone!

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It's not named after Cascade hops, but rather the Cascadian region in the Pacific NW where most American hops are grown. Fitting for a beer that prominently features American hops if you ask me.

Also, apologies for this annoying question, but you are talking about BJCP guidelines being new in 2011, right mcaple? I only ask because your article references the BA, whose style designations are independent of the BJCP, and because too many others before you have (falsely) claimed that the BJCP made new guidelines in relation to this style so I'm rather guarded about it. Again, I apologize for even asking if it is the BJCP and you do know what you're talking about, but too many people just talk out their ass on the internet.

moinkyschmoink said:

Because of the use of cascade hops? What should a home brewer who uses say amarillo call it then? Why not IBA? Is that so bad? Agreed, pale seems weird naming next to black in beer.
If anyone plays the race card, from either side, go suck it. I am the color rad.

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The use of the reference to cascade is due to the mountain range of the area where many of those varieties of hops are grown. The Cascade Range heads up from just north of where the psychadelic colour rad originated from :fro:

Pommy said:

The use of the reference to cascade is due to the mountain range of the area where many of those varieties of hops are grown. The Cascade Range heads up from just north of where the psychadelic colour rad originated from :fro:

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Automatically like this guy!

thegerm said:

the only things the style has in common with the traditional english IPA is that it's pretty bitter, and it's an ale. there's far more different than in common..

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I have always thought that the origin of the style was to take a traditional IPA (or rather the recent incarnations of the American IPA) and add grains that add a dark color. There really isn't that much of a malt backbone, hence the name Black IPA or Dark IPA.

I understand the use of Pale in the name seems kinda stupid, but in a way so is leaving India on there. It's all about the origins, and the mutations from them.

moinkyschmoink said:

Because of the use of cascade hops? What should a home brewer who uses say amarillo call it then? Why not IBA? Is that so bad? Agreed, pale seems weird naming next to black in beer.
If anyone plays the race card, from either side, go suck it. I am the color rad.

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I don't mean cascade hops specifically, I mean the hop growing and development that occurs in the pac-NW more generally.

slowbie said:

It's not named after Cascade hops, but rather the Cascadian region in the Pacific NW where most American hops are grown. Fitting for a beer that prominently features American hops if you ask me.

Also, apologies for this annoying question, but you are talking about BJCP guidelines being new in 2011, right mcaple? I only ask because your article references the BA, whose style designations are independent of the BJCP, and because too many others before you have (falsely) claimed that the BJCP made new guidelines in relation to this style so I'm rather guarded about it. Again, I apologize for even asking if it is the BJCP and you do know what you're talking about, but too many people just talk out their ass on the internet.

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Here is the way I put it.

Not trying to win anything, just want to make good beer. I just don't see how a roasted barley addition makes an ipa that (not awesome, or ****ty , I love beer!) original. But if it does, how is black, well, pale?

thegerm said:

I don't mean cascade hops specifically, I mean the hop growing and development that occurs in the pac-NW more generally.

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There's more to Cascadia than that. Get a hold of a bottle of HUB's Secession Cascadian Dark Ale. Map and flag are included in the graphics. Give us our Cascadian Dark Ale or we'll cease hop shipments when we secede.

I have a pack of multicolour paper for the kids but I'll call it "used-to-be-trees yellowish paper". Black IPA is a silly name and sometimes "big" groups like the BJCP do silly things.

But really, I don't care too much. I like making and drinking beer. And that's not silly.

B

slowbie said:

It's not named after Cascade hops, but rather the Cascadian region in the Pacific NW where most American hops are grown. Fitting for a beer that prominently features American hops if you ask me.

Also, apologies for this annoying question, but you are talking about BJCP guidelines being new in 2011, right mcaple? I only ask because your article references the BA, whose style designations are independent of the BJCP, and because too many others before you have (falsely) claimed that the BJCP made new guidelines in relation to this style so I'm rather guarded about it. Again, I apologize for even asking if it is the BJCP and you do know what you're talking about, but too many people just talk out their ass on the internet.

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Slowbie....yeah I see what you're getting at.It looks like even I was talking out of my ass, as I went into the microbrwery that I work at again and looked at the hardcopy of what I thought was the BJCP style guidelines, and apparently I was so excited to see that the CDA/BIPA style had been made, I forgot to read which publication I had. Yes, this is a BA style, so the BJCP I guess still has yet to recognize the style. Sorry for the false statements...I have officially tarnished my reputation now with this statement. Sorry everyone.

In other news, regardless of what you want to call it, as homebrewers, call it whatever you want...it's beer, and I don't think anyone will really get mad at you for calling it a CDA of a BIPA as long as they get to drink some free beer.

moinkyschmoink said:

Did not know that. I can dig it. Didn't mean to get anyone jacked up about it.
Thanks for the info.

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Don't worry about it too much. You inadvertently stepped on one of the homebrewing social landmines :rockin:

You can complete your tour by discussing why all-grain is better than extract, glass is better than plastic, liquid yeast performs better than dry, craft beers taste bad in cans, and by stating that Budweiser, Miller, and Coors are not the Evil Empire

thegerm said:

I'm from nowhere near the northwest. india in the name doesn't make sense. the only things the style has in common with the traditional english IPA is that it's pretty bitter, and it's an ale. there's far more different than in common. having the word "pale" in a dark beer is just f**king retarded.

I think proper respect is due to the pacific northwest community for much of the re-invigoration of craft beer throughout the world, and it's not too arrogant to say they do indeed deserve to have this style named for their region, their hops, their new-ish brewing tradition.

Cascadia Dark Ale is the perfect term for the style.

Click to expand...

The PNW is really pushing this style and gunning to call it their own. I say let them have it if they want it so bad.

I tried a black IPA (Otter Creek) the other day. It reminded me of a sweeter, hoppier, porter.

Yeah, the guys at Brewing TV did an episode last year giving the perspective of the PNW on the matter. As far as commercial versions, I've had different takes on it, which reminds me a lot of how commercial breweries interpret barleywine. You get some that are more bitter from roasted grains than hops, and others that are the opposite. I think it'll be some time before people work out what it's really supposed to take like (despite what the BA guidelines say).

Lakefront Brewery in Milwaukee makes what they call an IBA. (http://www.lakefrontbrewery.com/iba.html)

I could care less about official guidelines. If we demand an IBA, somebody makes it, then IBA is shall be called.

dunnright00 said:

I have always thought that the origin of the style was to take a traditional IPA (or rather the recent incarnations of the American IPA) and add grains that add a dark color. There really isn't that much of a malt backbone, hence the name Black IPA or Dark IPA.

I understand the use of Pale in the name seems kinda stupid, but in a way so is leaving India on there. It's all about the origins, and the mutations from them.

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This is exactly right.

If I was going to call a beer a Black IPA, I'd be doing so to recognize its ancestry as being derived partially from IPA. IPAs aren't from India (in fact, never were from there, but rather going to there), and aren't always so pale anyway. Does it fit BJCP guidelines for an IPA? No, but probably only in appearance. Does it matter? Maybe, if you're really going to be a beer nazi about it. But if I want to drink a Coronado Brewing Company Black Ops Black IPA, I'm going to do it, and love the beer for how it tastes, smells, looks, feels, not what it's called.

Now, do I also support creating a new beer category in the BJCP for the style? Yes. But for official purposes something like Cascadia Black Ale or American Black ale would be better for the official category.

I recall reading something recently about a commercial brewer trying to sell a beer dubbed IBA but being rejected for labeling/classification reasons.

I don't know where this issue currently stands.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/03/AR2010080304931.html

mcaple1 said:

Yes they have...I have the 2011 guidelines in my hand right now...and I'm not sore, and I have no issues with people learning...just wanted to point out that with regard to the BJCP...this debate is officially over. I agree that Cascadian Dark Ale would have been a better route to go, bringing beer style names back to regional areas like it used to be.

Click to expand...

That's not the BJCP, it's the BA guidelines. BJCP is usually used for homebrew competitions (much to my chagrin), the BA guidelines for commercial competitions. The most recent BJCP guidelines are from 2008.

I like my beer, coffee and women the same.

Black and bitter.

Cascadian Dark Ale sounds pretentious.

I like Black IPA and don't care about the contradiction.

What if i brewed a cda and used hops i grew in my yard, should i call it a pennsylvanian black ale?
Hops grow just about everywhere, naming a style based on another style, with slight alterations, for the region where some hops come from seems pretentious to me.

Caucasian said:

What if i brewed a cda and used hops i grew in my yard, should i call it a pennsylvanian black ale?
Hops grow just about everywhere, naming a style based on another style, with slight alterations, for the region where some hops come from seems pretentious to me.

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Call it anything you want to. The origin of the Black IPA was in Vermont in 1994 anyway. Noonan's brewpub brewed it then. There are many other hops in the world to make a hoppy beer with, so I despise the PNW trying to have their own beer term on something that wasn't created there. Maybe I'm a purist.

onthekeg said:

Call it anything you want to. The origin of the Black IPA was in Vermont in 1994 anyway. Noonan's brewpub brewed it then. There are many other hops in the world to make a hoppy beer with, so I despise the PNW trying to have their own beer term on something that wasn't created there. Maybe I'm a purist.

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+1. Vermont Black Ale (VBA) is what I lean toward. (I may be bias )

Also, the NW did not always dominate the Hop growing in the US.

unionrdr said:

So,by that definition,if I brew a batch here in OH,I would call it "Buckeye Black" IPA? You know what,actually,that's not bad...

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Swamp Head calls their Blackwater "Floridian Dark Ale". So Buckeye would be fine...

BTW, Troy Smith just got sacked again!

Well it's black and it's a subcategory of an IPA. If you say "black ale" I think it's basically an ale version of a schwarzbier and that's not really correct.

Black IPA is a good descriptor and good name. Black + pale = black anyways.