First Wort Hopping (FWH) - BIAB - when do you remove the hops?

I have read many articles here and elsewhere on first wort hopping (FWH).
My understanding is you use the flavor hops (typically added at 10-15 minutes remaining in the boil) at the beginning of sparging.

1. For traditional all grain setups, you place the hops in your kettle, and let them steep for 30+ minutes in the wort runnings.
At what temperature? 167? 152?


2. For BIAB this step doesn't exist.
So I wonder if you can place them in the grain, or in a hops bag, and mash them for 60 minutes. The hops will be exposed to 152 degree water.
Has anyone done this?


3. Do you remove these FW hops and discard them at the start of the boil?
Or do you then leave them in the one hour boil?

1. You let them steep at whatever temp the runoff comes out at. It takes a while to drain and sparge, so they'll sit there for maybe an hour as the wort cools.

2. I wouldn't put them in while the grains are in there; I'd be afraid of the grains absorbing too much of the hop flavor. Put them in after you remove the grain bag and when you're getting ready to heat to boil.

3. I think most people leave them in for the duration of the boil. That's what I've done.

As to the BIAB question....I throw the FWH addition into the wort after mashout and pulling the bag. They steep for however long it takes the wort to come to a boil and remain in the kettle for the duration.

For the traditional set-up, I've let the sparge run through the FWH in a hop bag for the duration of the sparge. Temperature depends on what you've mashed in at, if you've done a mash-out etc. I don't think having a precise temperature its critical as long as its a typical mash temp/sparge temp. I've then removed the hop bag as the wort come to boil and then re-added for bittering hop addition. I've heard of holding the FWH for aroma/flavoring additions as well. I've also heard of holding FWH during heat to boil and total boil periods. I have not heard of discarding hops upon the boil.

There is a pretty decent thread for FWH in BIAB ---> https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/steeping-first-wort-hopping-biab-239082/

For BIAB I just toss it in the pot with the first runnings and once I finish sparging with the bag I toss the first runnings with the hops into the main kettle and start the boil.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

For BIAB I just toss it in the pot with the first runnings and once I finish sparging with the bag I toss the first runnings with the hops into the main kettle and start the boil.

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This is basically what I do (with pretty good results).

I do a sort of 2 vessel partial mash BIAB. I mash in the the bag (usually about 5-8 pounds of grain). I heat the balance of the water to mashout temps in my boil kettle. I remove the bag from the wort, and sit it in the mashout water in the kettle. I add the hops to the first mash and let them steep whilst I dunk the bag in the kettle. After this dunk sparge, I pour the contents of the mash tun (wort, hops and all) into the kettle and boil as usual.

sounds more complex than it is. I have done this a few times now, and have had great hop flavor.

With BIAB , after mashout (at say 168) the hops wont have much time to sit in the wort, until it starts boiling.
From 168 - boiling takes how long? Call it 15 minutes? Less? More? 20 minutes?

I thought for FWH the hops needed to steep for 30-60 minutes, not 15.

ArcLight said:

With BIAB , after mashout (at say 168) the hops wont have much time to sit in the wort, until it starts boiling.
From 168 - boiling takes how long? Call it 15 minutes? Less? More? 20 minutes?

I thought for FWH the hops needed to steep for 30-60 minutes, not 15.

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From what I've read 15 minutes is sufficient. I think that's even the default on beersmith for FWH. It's not like you take the hops out at boiling. You steep, then boil, so they are in there for a long time. I'm sure some breweries are steeping for 30-60 minutes just by nature of having to fill such a large vessel and how long it takes to sparge. Not sure they are getting much more out of the longer steep but it would make for an interesting side-by-side comparison to find out.

Not trying to pirate the thread but have a simple question on FWH. Will the hop flavor get boiled out? And will it add alot of bitterness?

>>From what I've read 15 minutes is sufficient. I think that's even the default on beersmith for FWH. It's not like you take the hops out at boiling. You steep, then boil, so they are in there for a long time. I'm sure some breweries are steeping for 30-60 minutes just by nature of having to fill such a large vessel and how long it takes to sparge. Not sure they are getting much more out of the longer steep but it would make for an interesting side-by-side comparison to find out.

Where did you read this, I'd like to take a look!

For those who FWH, have any of you steeped for only 15 minutes? While 15 minutes is the max boil time for flavoring hops using traditional methods, is that really all thats needed?

I don't put much credence in stuff "that I read", I prefer to try things myself and draw my own conclusions. My FWH hops steep for as long as it takes my kettle to come to a boil, never timed it and not really curious enough to start. All I can offer is that I have several recipes that only get a FWH and dry hop (no other bittering, flavor. or aroma additions) and these brews have a very smooth bitterness along with a huge hop flavor and aroma. Try it yourself and let us know what your findings are.

>>All I can offer is that I have several recipes that only get a FWH and dry hop (no other bittering, flavor.

Does this mean that you don't use bittering hops, and instead FWH your flavor hops, leaving them in for the steeping and full 60 minute boil? What type of beer? I'm a little surprised that would be sufficient. I can see reducing bittering hoops, to make up for the increased bittering from the FWH, but none, hmmm.

Can you post these recipes?

Correct, no bittering hops. Simply a FWH addition and the dryhop after fermentation is complete. Like I said.....I prefer to try things for myself and experiment as opposed to taking oft-repeated advice as gospel. (I also BIAB and no-chill, big surprise huh?)

I've been experimenting with this on some APA's, will post a recipe when I get home later tonight.

>..I prefer to try things for myself and experiment as opposed to taking oft-repeated advice as gospel.

I agree. I will have to experiment with some small batches over time.

Thank you for your advice.

Here's the latest recipe:

Type: All Grain
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.25 gal
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: BIAB_winpack
End of Boil Volume 6.25 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 69.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal Est Mash Efficiency 82.1 %
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage

Ingredients

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
9 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 82.6 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 4.3 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.3 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.3 %
8.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 5 4.3 %
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [10.10 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 6 17.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.90 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 7 23.8 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) [23.66 ml] Yeast 8 -
1.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [10.10 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.057 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.6 %
Bitterness: 41.0 IBUs Calories: 182.3 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 7.5 SRM

Mash Steps
Mash at 152F for 90 minutes
Mashout at 168F for 10 minutes

Notes
Used PacMan yeast, fermented at 65F.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the FW hops, just the dry hops (Citra, Amarillo )

Never mind, I see them above the yeast, thanks.

0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [10.10 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 6 17.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.90 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 7 23.8 IBUs


That seems like a lot more IBUs than I'd expect from a FWH. I assume that bitterness is not as harsh.
I'd like to taste that.

Thank you

ArcLight said:

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the FW hops, just the dry hops (Citra, Amarillo )

Click to expand...

0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [10.10 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 6 17.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.90 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 7 23.8 IBUs

Why would you expect less bitterness from FWH? They go into the kettle, and the mash is runoff into the kettle (or the bag is pulled and hung to drain if BIABing), the kettle is then brought to a boil. The FWH stay in the entire length of the boil. They're going to isomerize the hop oils at least as much as a traditional 60min bittering charge, if not more.

What BigRob said.....it's still a 60+ minute addition so you do get all the bittering. The benefits of the FWH is that the bittering "seems" less harsh but more importantly you get a flavor contribution from those hops similar to @ a 20 minute addition. I don't understand the science behind it but I know it works. (Maybe it's magic?)

The numbers that beer smith software gives for fwh are much lower than a 60 minute. I wonder if I am doing something wrong or if the software assumes that you remove the hops before the boil.

I dunno what version of beersmith you're using, but mine (2.0) is giving me 44.3 IBUs for FWH and 40.3 IBUs for 60min Boil, that's for 20g of 6.4% Cascade in a 10L batch.

You are right, my memory was faulty. it does +10% for FWH and -80% for mash hops.

What happens if you steep your FWH at 170 for 30 mins, but remove them before hitting a boil? Any detriment to bitterness?

Any new insight on this topic ?

My take is it's added to the wort which is still under 80ºC to extract flavour + aroma .... especially useful for "no-chill" brewers who can't add a normal late (15min - flame-out) additions of hops, as it will impact the total IBU's when this wort sits for a long time in the "clearing cube"

I think this is why this chart shows to add it as FWH for 30min.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6133370&postcount=4

ArcLight said:

I
2. For BIAB this step doesn't exist.
So I wonder if you can place them in the grain, or in a hops bag, and mash them for 60 minutes. The hops will be exposed to 152 degree water.
Has anyone done this?

Click to expand...

I added them right after i removed the grain bag and started heating the water. I never took them out because the articles I read compared the FWH to a 60 minute boil addition and I never removed my boil addition hops.

JIGSAW said:

I think this is why this chart shows to add it as FWH for 30min.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6133370&postcount=4

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That's: 10 and 15min hops additions are added as FWH, but measured as the equivalent of a 30min addition for IBU's.

BenCL said:

That's: 10 and 15min hops additions are added as FWH, but measured as the equivalent of a 30min addition for IBU's.

Click to expand...

I don't agree

JIGSAW said:

I don't agree

Click to expand...

Full text with chart, the original post by the guy who made the chart:

The Pol said:

There was a question about whether or not this chart existed... it does. Slightly updated no chill hop adjustment chart.

Changes**

FWH additions have been adjusted up from 20 min IBU credit to 30 min IBU credit.

Cube hop has been changed to Transfer hop (hops introduced at flame out, NOT transferred to the cube).

DISCALIMER!!!
This chart is my own personal chart... this is by no means THE way to move NC wort hop additions. THIS IS WHAT I DO and WHAT I DO ONLY! This chart is tailored to my process and my min. boil time of 90 minutes!! If you already do something that works for you, KEEP DOING IT! This is merely a guidleline, and EXAMPLE of what ONE brewer does in his own brewery.

Click to expand...

Well, you guys have FWH in one post, and no chill hopping changes in the next.

FWH- when you add the hops to the wort during sparging, before boiling, and leave them in there for the boil and chilling.

No chill: When you don't chill the wort, and instead let it sit to chill on its own. Since isomerization of the hops oils occurs after the wort stops boiling, while it's still hot, adjustments need to be made for the late hops since it contributes more to the IBUs than a traditional hops schedule, with chilling.

That's comparing elephants and oranges- not even close to the same thing.

I still don't agree .... The steep time in wort before boil was upped from 20min to 30min

but let it be ... each to his own then ... seems other people can't handle the attention this thread is getting

No chill deep web

ArcLight said:

I have read many articles here and elsewhere on first wort hopping (FWH).
My understanding is you use the flavor hops (typically added at 10-15 minutes remaining in the boil) at the beginning of sparging.

1. For traditional all grain setups, you place the hops in your kettle, and let them steep for 30+ minutes in the wort runnings.
At what temperature? 167? 152?


2. For BIAB this step doesn't exist.
So I wonder if you can place them in the grain, or in a hops bag, and mash them for 60 minutes. The hops will be exposed to 152 degree water.
Has anyone done this?


3. Do you remove these FW hops and discard them at the start of the boil?
Or do you then leave them in the one hour boil?

Click to expand...

1. at whatever temp your wort runnings are running at, I would think that your mashout is more important than your FWH at this stage. That being said there is a magic zone where the oils change and are utilized differently at different temp. per different oil per percentage of that oil in which ever hop you are using.

2. This is called mash hopping not FWH

3. For BIAB this step does exist, I always FWH, when I pull the bag I dump my hops into the wort while the bag drains then bring the pot to boil, I leave the hops in for the entire duration, FWH from what I have read, the lower temp at before the boil creates a smoother taste and increase the IBU by 10% when boiled... It's voodoo magic.


http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/11/11/best-hop-techniques-for-homebrewing/

http://beerlegends.com/hops-varieties

https://www.hopunion.com/aroma-wheel/

So would you gain flavor from FWH if you pulled them before the boil and used a second hop for bitterness? Or is this the same as a knockout addition @ 160 - 170F

dstockwell said:

So would you gain flavor from FWH if you pulled them before the boil and used a second hop for bitterness? Or is this the same as a knockout addition @ 160 - 170F

Click to expand...

I dont think you can really compare it to a post boil addition. YOu arent going to taste anything at all from a bittering addition, be it a 60min, 90min, or fwh addition (aside from the bitterness).

Then I don't get FWH. I input into Brewers Friend 1oz FWH and get 27IBU, change it to 60 min boil and get 45IBU for the same 1oz.

I do a lot of SMaSH beers and I think I can taste a difference.

from one of the links above: "In blind taste tests, beers brewed with this method are perceived as smoother, better blended and have less of a bitter edge and aftertaste"

Just try it for yourself, you be the judge then tell us what you think.

dstockwell said:

Then I don't get FWH. I input into Brewers Friend 1oz FWH and get 27IBU, change it to 60 min boil and get 45IBU for the same 1oz.

Click to expand...

"Calculating the FWH numerically is quite simple. In most cases an adjustment (10%) is added to the calculated bitterness in IBUs to account for the higher utilization of FWH methods. "

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/17/the-first-wort-hop-beer-brewing-techniques/

Thanks, I read that. I found out Brewers Friend uses 20 minute calculation for FWH.

I swap out 60 minute bittering additions quite regularly for FWH additions at a 1:1 ratio (including pale ales). I do think I can taste some of the flavor in FWH, but obviously it isn't going to do what a 10-20 minute addition will. I do admit for IPA's and IIPA's I make sure I have either a 60 or 90 minute addition that augments the FWH addition.

I find FWH adds more perceived bitterness than the previously mentioned 20 minute hop addition correlation.

dstockwell said:

Thanks, I read that. I found out Brewers Friend uses 20 minute calculation for FWH.

Click to expand...

Right. Which really doesn't make any sense, since the wort is boiled for at least 60 minutes, almost always.

The IBUs may seem "smoother", but there is still isomerization and the long boil will exacerbate that.

I've read that "FWH is like a 20 minute addition", but if you've ever done it, you know it's bunk.