Star San Cloudiness (with pics)

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Johnnyboy1012

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Until yesterday when a friend told me about cloudy Star San being ineffective, I did not realize that Star San solution is supposed to be clear. It has always been cloudy for me, but I have never encountered a problem with infection before. When looking into the matter I decided to buy some pH test strips and experiment. I am by no means a chemist or scientist but so please correct me if I say anything wrong. I attached 4 photos of my observation.

I always keep a growler full of Star San in case I need it for a small sanitizing task, rather then make a new batch every time I need it. I've been reading on here that people fear when it turns cloudy it could become ineffective at sanitizing, which would be bad for brewing. I have had this cloudy Star San made with tap water sitting around in a clear growler for a few weeks now and wanted to check the pH before I used it to sanitize my equipment. I also made another growler of Star San with distilled water to compare it to my results of the cloudy tap water Star San. See the pictures attached to and let me know what you think.

A quick wrap up...One pic is a pH test strip of about 4 week old Star San made with tap water...(Very cloudy) *Last Pic*

Another pic is of Star San made with distilled water I made today. (Very clear) *Third Pic*

The other two pics are comparing the two pH strips together.

I think the two have almost an identical pH, which to me says that the cloudiness is not a factor....what do you guys think? Cheers!

image(1).jpg


image.jpg


Distilled Clear.jpg


Tap Water Cloudy.jpg
 
I've heard that the cloudiness thing is bogus. The mine turns cloudy almost instantly too and I think it has something to do with water composition. I have those same pH strips and I've used them a few times but I normally just switch out my starsan every month now depending on how much I'm using it. I don't even remember what the pH is supposed to be? Below 3? 4?
 
I've heard that the cloudiness thing is bogus. The mine turns cloudy almost instantly too and I think it has something to do with water composition. I have those same pH strips and I've used them a few times but I normally just switch out my starsan every month now depending on how much I'm using it. I don't even remember what the pH is supposed to be? Below 3? 4?

It is supposed to be below 3.5. Above that it starts to become less effective.
 
Craigtube did a test on this and confirmed that the cloudy StarSan solution was still at an effective PH level. I found that StarSan turns cloudy when I mix with my tap water, but when I run my tap water through a whole house filter it remains clear. Definitely something with the mineral or chlorine content of my tap water.
 
I read that the cloudy Starsan "Myth" was based on if you used distilled water. As you can tell from the OP's pictures the distilled is clear. and after using it over and over it will become cloudy and that is when you need to start testing it. The Starsan mixed with tap water is generally cloudy from the get and so you do not have an effective way of telling when the solution is starting to turn ineffective with out using testing strips.

I'm not able to find the link to the article. I know it is in an email somewhere. I'll post it if I can find it.
 
I can always tell when the salt runs out my softwater system....my starsan mixture is cloudy.
 
Well well, this is very interesting! I was under the impression that cloudy was what you get once all the good stuff in Star San gets turned to crap by reactions with calcium in the water or some such. So I've been buying $4 worth of distilled water each time I make a new batch up (maybe once every couple months).

That would be nice not to have to spend the money or waste my time on, thanks for this!
 
Lol. I always thought my star San was supposed to be cloudy. Didn't know it could be clear. Never saw it any other way and never really paid much attention to it otherwise.
 
You’re forgetting about the detergent. Check the label.
50% phosphoric acid
15% dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid
35% inert ingredients

The DDBSA is a linear alkane anionic surfactant. It is used in combination with the acid to kill the bacteria. You need both.

The cloudiness you are seeing indicates the detergent is at least partially used up. If you listen to the sticky at the top, Charlie Talley says when it gets cloudy or above pH3.0 throw it out.
 
Listening to a podcast on the BN (Brew Strong) with Dr. Jon E. Hershkowitz from Five-Star the impression I get is that as long as the pH is below 3.5, it is still effective. Thoughts on this? Anyone else listen to this podcast?
 
Dr. Jon E. Hershkowitz does caution us by saying really hard water is not good for sanitizers. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the reason is because hard water has a greater resistance to the change in pH and Star San is supposed to drop the pH below 3. He also mentions that hard water will lessen the lifespan of Star San. Anyone else under the impression that as long as the pH is below 3.5 the Star San is still effective?
 
It's always looking cloudy for me too but I've never had a problem with an infection. If you look in the pictures I posted, the distilled water with the Star San came out crystal clear while the Star San with tap water is cloudy. Both have the same pH so I'm confused if they work just as good or if one is better then the other.
 
Star San says right on it to use TAP water. Mine is always cloudy, too.

This is a very good point...it does say that. My water is pretty soft, very little crap in it, and if I use tap water my star san stays clear for a day or so then goes cloudy.

I don't have ph strips to measure it that accurately though.
 
I decided to go right to the source and emailed Star San. They responded almost immediately.

Hello,
I made two batches of Star San and tested both their pH's and both were under 3.5. One was made with tap water and the other with distilled water. The tap water was cloudy very quickly, while the other batch I used distilled water and it was crystal clear. Both batches had about the same pH, so I am confused to which I should use and why. Of course I would rather use free tap water rather then buying 5 gallons of distilled water every time I want to brew. Can you please help me clear this up and help me understand why the tap water turns cloudy but has the same pH as the distilled water batch. Also, does the cloudiness indicate that the Star San is not as effective anymore? Thank you for your help!


They responded:

John



The tap water must be on the hard side as that will make the Star San go cloudy, but it is still good to use for the day, no longer. The Star San used with distilled water has nothing to break it down and will stay clear and can be used multiple times, as long as the distilled mixtures ph is 3.5 or below it is still good to use, only if clear. Even if the cloudy Star San is 3.5ph or below please discard after the day. Please let me know if you have any questions.

I guess even if the pH is below 3.5 on cloudy batches it should still be thrown out, but is still good for sanitizing on brew day.
 
I decided to go right to the source and emailed Star San. They responded almost immediately.

Hello,
I made two batches of Star San and tested both their pH's and both were under 3.5. One was made with tap water and the other with distilled water. The tap water was cloudy very quickly, while the other batch I used distilled water and it was crystal clear. Both batches had about the same pH, so I am confused to which I should use and why. Of course I would rather use free tap water rather then buying 5 gallons of distilled water every time I want to brew. Can you please help me clear this up and help me understand why the tap water turns cloudy but has the same pH as the distilled water batch. Also, does the cloudiness indicate that the Star San is not as effective anymore? Thank you for your help!

They responded:

John



The tap water must be on the hard side as that will make the Star San go cloudy, but it is still good to use for the day, no longer. The Star San used with distilled water has nothing to break it down and will stay clear and can be used multiple times, as long as the distilled mixtures ph is 3.5 or below it is still good to use, only if clear. Even if the cloudy Star San is 3.5ph or below please discard after the day. Please let me know if you have any questions.

I guess even if the pH is below 3.5 on cloudy batches it should still be thrown out, but is still good for sanitizing on brew day.


Wow... That would have been nice to know about 6 months ago. I've been using ineffective Star San apparently...

Maybe their instructions on the bottle should be a little more clear.
 
Wow... That would have been nice to know about 6 months ago. I've been using ineffective Star San apparently...

Maybe their instructions on the bottle should be a little more clear.

I agree. My Star San has always been cloudy and I never thought anything of it because I have never had an infected beer. Now I know to use it once and get rid of it unless I use distilled water
 
Wow... That would have been nice to know about 6 months ago. I've been using ineffective Star San apparently...

Maybe their instructions on the bottle should be a little more clear.

I'll certainly second that. The appeal of StarSan is the ability to keep a quantity of sanitizing solution on hand, so it's available when needed. Now I learn that, without distilled water, I have to make up a fresh batch every time I need some sanitizer.

On the other hand, I've been using cloudy StarSan for about 6 months with no issues. I usually make up a batch on brew day and use it throughout racking, SG testing and bottling.

I took a look this morning at distilling machines. You can get a decent one on Amazon for around $110 that will produce 5.5 gal per day. That seems to be a less troublesome way of getting distilled water, rather than schlepping gallon jugs from the local WalMart. It would be especially economical if one were to brew with the distilled water as well.

Is there any reason not to brew with distilled water?

I'm basically an extract brewer, and have always used bottled spring water due to rather frequent off taste and smell in my tap water. Switching to distilled water would allow me to write off the cost of the machine against what I spend on spring water.

Would it be necessary/desirable to add gypsum or Burton salts or would that only be needed for AG brewing?

:confused:
 
I took a look this morning at distilling machines. You can get a decent one on Amazon for around $110 that will produce 5.5 gal per day. That seems to be a less troublesome way of getting distilled water, rather than schlepping gallon jugs from the local WalMart. It would be especially economical if one were to brew with the distilled water as well.

Is there any reason not to brew with distilled water?

Space restrictions.

If you're renting, you paying rent on the floorspace it occupies.
 
I'll certainly second that. The appeal of StarSan is the ability to keep a quantity of sanitizing solution on hand, so it's available when needed. Now I learn that, without distilled water, I have to make up a fresh batch every time I need some sanitizer.

On the other hand, I've been using cloudy StarSan for about 6 months with no issues. I usually make up a batch on brew day and use it throughout racking, SG testing and bottling.

I took a look this morning at distilling machines. You can get a decent one on Amazon for around $110 that will produce 5.5 gal per day. That seems to be a less troublesome way of getting distilled water, rather than schlepping gallon jugs from the local WalMart. It would be especially economical if one were to brew with the distilled water as well.

Is there any reason not to brew with distilled water?

I'm basically an extract brewer, and have always used bottled spring water due to rather frequent off taste and smell in my tap water. Switching to distilled water would allow me to write off the cost of the machine against what I spend on spring water.

Would it be necessary/desirable to add gypsum or Burton salts or would that only be needed for AG brewing?

:confused:
Brewing with spring water or distilled water is perfectly fine for an extract brewer because the extract contains the minerals needed for fermentation. During the making of extract the water is evaporated out but the minerals remain in the extract (calcium, magnesium, chloride, sulfate, and so on), so no brewing salts are required. On the other hand, for an all grain brewer, brewing salts can used for flavor as well as adjust mash pH.

But I have heard of people adding salts to their boil when brewing with extract. The only trick with that is that you need to know what your current water minerals are as well as the amount of minerals in the extract so that you do not go overboard with the salt additions. Make sense? Hope this helped you understand a bit better.
 
Thanks. That confirms my intuition on the matter. Depending on cash flow, I may give the water distiller a try..

If you haven't had any problems with infection yet, why change things up?

Even easier... why not just use a water filter? Cheap ones can be had at the drug store on sale for $5 often. That will remove the minerals causing the cloudiness.
 
"I've heard", "I think", " I believe",,blah, blah blah, blah, blah. Can someone please post facts and maybe put this to rest?

I think the email put it to rest. Unless that was fake?

I mix a fresh batch every brewday and keep a spray bottle batch made with distilled water for the random sampling/testing...
 
"I've heard", "I think", " I believe",,blah, blah blah, blah, blah. Can someone please post facts and maybe put this to rest?

Facts about what? I think the email response I got from Five Star in one of my previous posts gives the facts on Star San and cloudiness that I'm sure everyone was looking for.

What do you have more questions about? I will try to answer them the best I can.
 
That email was 100% legit...No reason to make a fake email from Star San...Here is the lady's info from Five Star that responded back to me...

Shaunda Steffen <[email protected]>

Dec 28 (1 day ago)

Shaunda Steffen

Five Star Chemicals & Supply Inc.

4915 E 52nd Ave

Commerce City, CO 80022

1-800-782-7019

303-287-0391 Fax

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com

I was just goofin'. The email puts this one to rest. I'm glad that's the way I've been using my star san. I went all in and bought a gallon. I use a half ounce every brewday. I'm good for a while;)
 
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