Most frustrating hobby ever?

I need your help oh lords of homebrew. I have been brewing about twice a month for 6 months or so. I have never made a single drinkable batch of beer. Every single beer I do ends up with the same puckering, sour smell and taste, which I'm sure is an infection of some kind. I've been trying to troubleshoot by removing one element of my process at a time but nothing has worked. I've stopped making starters, pitching straight out of the smack pack (which i sanitize, along with the scissors i use to cut the pack). I've started only doing month long primary fermentations in order to reduce my chances of infection. I feel like I've tried everything.

I do 5 gallon all grain batches on my stove. I soak and scrub everything in PBW followed by StarSan. I'm very careful with cleaning and sanitization even pre-boil because I've gotten so obsessed with avoiding infection. I ferment in a glass carboy which I also soak overnight in PBW followed by a several hour soak in StarSan.

The only things I can think of are the fact that my electric stove doesn't exactly boil very vigorously so perhaps it's not killing off microbes in the wort? I also never cover the kettle when I'm using my wort chiller, perhaps the little guys are falling during that ten minute period?

I need to get this figured out. I would like to just once make something that I can actually enjoy instead of pouring it down the drain.

Any ideas/suggestions?

-Tubz.

Maybe you can walk us step by step through your process in as much detail as you can give?

Oh and don't discount how frustrating shipbuilding in a bottle would be.

Maybe you are trying beers that are beyond your current skill. Not to sound like an @$$ but did you just jump into home brewing by starting with AG? Any extract kits ever? My first couple of AG batches were bad but drinkable. I am a firm believer in starting with extracts in order to get the basics down. Let me know a little more about your processes post boil and hopefully I can help.

wow. thats terrible to hear. wish i had the know how to tell you where your going wrong but if your doing everything your saying there im stumped, though i am no expert thats for sure. maybe sanitize everything with just a simple bleach water solution if you really think that infection is the problem. another thing to consider are you allowing your beer to ferment in the same area every time? if it is getting the same infection (similar off taste everytime??) i would maybe move it to a different area during brewing, cooling, fermenting, and bottling. just my .02 best of luck

Are you using an immersion chiller? If so, boiling it in your wort for at least 15 minutes? And if it's a counterflow, how are u cleaning it?

It sounds like you are doing a full-wort boil, which is good. If you are concerned about the strength of your boil you could always invest in a turkey fryer, but as long as you are boiling even a little bit no beer-spoiling microbes will survive. Any grain dust around? That can be a source of lacto, but I have grain dust near where I chill my wort and don't have any of those problems.

Are you topping off with tap water at all? Are you boiling your priming sugar? Have you tried the beer right out of the fermenter to see if it's the fermenter or the bottles that is causing it?

It sounds like to me that your first batch got an infection and it still lives in your gear.

Throw out any plastic gear you have been using. Fermenters, funnels, siphons etc... Even with vigorous cleaning and sanitizing they can still easily harbor bacteria.

Switch any gear that you can to glass or metal. You might even try switching the rooms in which you ferment. It might sound extreme but it's worth a shot.

More specifics would surely help. Do you use tap water or bottled?

It starts the night before when I fill my carboy with PBW to soak overnight. I give it a good scrub with the brush in the morning and fill it when Starsan. This soaks for a few hours while I mash and boil. I fill a five gallon bucket with pbw and soak and scrub everything else (racking cane, tubing, airlock, even my mash paddle, etc.), then I soak all of these things in Star San until I'm ready to use them. I mash and lauter in my home made cooler mash tun for an hour. I collect the runnings in my kettle and boil. After flame out I move the kettle to the sink where I cool with an immersion chiller. While this is happening I empty the star san from the carboy and rack the wort into it. I aerate the wort and pitch the yeast, throw on an airlock and put it in the closet.

Several weeks pass.....

I crack open the carboy and I'm greeted with the same sickening smell. At first I thought it was just green beer so I let it go for a while. But every batch is the same.

And now that I reread it, u are doing all-grain? There are lots of other potential areas to look at then. Getting full conversion? pH not too high?

Where are you in Wisconsin?

How are you aerating the wort?

PurpleJeepXJ said:

Maybe you are trying beers that are beyond your current skill. Not to sound like an @$$ but did you just jump into home brewing by starting with AG? Any extract kits ever? My first couple of AG batches were bad but drinkable. I am a firm believer in starting with extracts in order to get the basics down. Let me know a little more about your processes post boil and hopefully I can help.

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12 batches of beer and not a single good one? I gotta agree, go try an extract. If you can make a good extract beer, that will eliminate some of the possible causes.

Thanks for your help so far. I'll try to keep answering your questions as they come.

My immersion chiller I simply soak in starsan.
I'm not topping off with water, doing full boils.
It's definitely in the fermenter.
I've tried several different water sources. Right now I'm using tap water through a charcoal filter.

I'll echo Mparsons, tap or bottled water? I used tap for my first 5 batches and it was gross. Two batches ago I used 4 gallons of bottled and used tap to make up the difference. The flavor is still there, but less noticeable. My last one I used all bottled, I'll know in 4 weeks how it worked, but I think it'll be great.

How about the Sanitizer. Maybe it isn't really killing your bugs. Are you following the directions exactly?
What kind of concentration are you using and how are you measuring it?
Have you checked the Ph of the mixed StarSan?
What temperature water are you mixing it with??

How are you transferring from the Kettle to the Primary? Are you dumping everything or trying to strain out the trub? (I say dump it all and minimize problems in straining)

Most importantly, what comes into contact with your cooled wort? How about your spoon, do you pull it out, and use it again after the wort is cooled without sanitizing?

What's in your Airlock? Try using some cheap Vodka?

I do a mix of extract and all grain, depending on how much time I have. I get the same results with both.

Just one thought off the top of my head, do you rinse between the PBW and StarSan? PBW is an alkaline cleaser, i.e., doesn't kill much; StarSan is an acid sanitizer, i.e., only kills when the pH is below 3. Just thinking maybe the PBW is raising the pH of the StarSan to an ineffective level.

One other thought: Are you bottling? Do you disassemble and sanitize the spigot on your bottling bucket?

tubz said:

Thanks for your help so far. I'll try to keep answering your questions as they come.

My immersion chiller I simply soak in starsan.
I'm not topping off with water, doing full boils.
It's definitely in the fermenter.
I've tried several different water sources. Right now I'm using tap water through a charcoal filter.

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I'd definitely boil the IC for at least 15 minutes at the end of your boil. There's a lot of nicks and crannies for bugs to hide there.

I check the pH of the starsan before I use it just to make sure its good. I mixing it with room temp tap water.

I transfer as much as I can, leaving the trub behind with the racking cane.

After I use a spoon(or anything) it goes right back into the sanitizer until i need it again.

I'm using sanitizer in my airlock.

this may sounds stupid but you did not say that you are sanitizing your IM and your aerator. if you are then i would assume something else but if not, i would def suspect those being the problem

plus how are you sanitizing the IM? throwing it into the boiling wort or with starsan?

the boiling wort no matter how vigorous should kill anything because its it stabilizes at/around 212F, as long as its boiling. it only typically gets higher temp if it was under pressure.

EDIT: my questions where answered while i was writing this

Yes I'm rinsing everything between the PBW and Starsan.

I keg everything, but nothing makes it into the keg because it's terrible. Ha.

I'll definitely try boiling the chiller. Good idea.

Forget about the fancy sanitizers and bleach the hell out of all your equipment. What you can soak for a day do so. Then start over after rinsing the bleach off. Sounds like starsan or whatever you use is not killing whatever is the common denominator bacteria between all your brews. Everyone will probably jump in now saying don't use bleach but lots of people use it as their primary sanitizer as long as you use it with moderation.

tubz said:

I transfer as much as I can, leaving the trub behind with the racking cane.

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To simplify things, I'd try one batch where you just sanitize a funnel, and dump directly from the kettle into the fermentor. This could reveal if a bug is living in your siphon or hose.

PurpleJeepXJ said:

Forget about the fancy sanitizers and bleach the hell out of all your equipment. What you can soak for a day do so.

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Except his kegs. And maybe his spoon. And anything else stainless.

Starsan is a fine sanitizer when used properly. Bleach is a fine sanitizer, too, except that it'll destroy stainless. No reason to use a potentially dangerous sanitizer when there are other options that are safer but equally effective.

Bleach destroys stainless? Didn't know that. I am not talking about a straight bleach soak. 25-1 shouldn't hurt stainless.

If you are mixing your StarSan with tap, it could be rendering it useless. I ggot an infection, and it was because I mixed it with tap water. I would mix your StarSan with distilled water and also get a spray bottle to mist things also.

I've used bleach before and as long as you rinse it with piping hot water you won't have any problems.

The big question I have is, what temp are you fermenting at? All my beers tasted the same (i.e. not really that great) until I started keeping the temps 68F or less. A simple swamp-cooler setup could change your whole world!

You bring up a good point Cruly. If his temps are fluctuating then that can definitely make the beer taste bad.

PurpleJeepXJ said:

Bleach destroys stainless? Didn't know that. I am not talking about a straight bleach soak. 25-1 shouldn't hurt stainless.

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Hmm, that's a good question: is there a relationship between dilution and contact time that affects pitting stainless? My guess is that a 25:1 would still damage a keg given enough time, but I don't really know or have anything to back that up other than it makes sense to me.

tubz said:

Yes I'm rinsing everything between the PBW and Starsan.

I keg everything, but nothing makes it into the keg because it's terrible. Ha.

I'll definitely try boiling the chiller. Good idea.

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Wait are you saying you have yet to carb a beer up and try it? This sounds like you are trying a beer after it is done fermenting, and not liking the taste and dumping. So you are not bottling or kegging, just dumping. Alot happens with aging an extra 3 weeks or more, and beer gets a way different flavor from carbonation. I forget of the acid that is produced that changes a beers profile when carbonated.

PurpleJeepXJ said:

Forget about the fancy sanitizers and bleach the hell out of all your equipment. What you can soak for a day do so. Then start over after rinsing the bleach off. Sounds like starsan or whatever you use is not killing whatever is the common denominator bacteria between all your brews. Everyone will probably jump in now saying don't use bleach but lots of people use it as their primary sanitizer as long as you use it with moderation.

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Do this, I had an infection that ran through 3 batches and the only thing that cured it was bleach bombing everything over night. Its cheap and just rinse everything off with warm water really well after.

Have you tried dry yeast?

Are you trying to make big beers? Underpitching?

I know in the dairy industry that bleach and acid are both used to clean stainless, of course not together, so I don't think diluted bleach will hurt a stainless pot or such. I would not use it in a keg though because your rings and fittings will not hold up.

You scrub all your equipment? Isn't slot of it plastic? Is it a carboy or better bottle? You can't scrub plastic that of just asking for an infection. toss the plastic and just soak from now on. My two cents!

I know I'm a rarity but I've been using bleach in standard measures (1 tblsp per gallon + 1 extra for good luck) ever since I began brewing. I started on the cheap just to see if I liked brewing. Having used bleach from the beginning and not having had any problems through 30 batches I didn't see a reason to quit. Though StarSan is an awesome product. I've had my beer tasted at the LHBC and by master & grand master level bjcp judges, no one has ever said they detected any water or clorine issues. Fwiw I don't rinse when I sanitize on brew day. I clean the kitchen spick & span. Use clorox kitchen spray on the counters, stove top, etc. I pour out my bleach solution from the fermenter, place my air-lock, etc. on the counter, and shake out the fermenter real well. Probably leaves about 1 tblsp of cleaning solution in there total, not enough to know it's there.

Boil your racking hoses & even racking canes will survive a quick dip. The easiest thing is to replace everything plastic and bleach with a strength of 1/4 cup bleach per 5-6.5 gallons of water on everything else sans stainless steel as others have suggested. ABSOLUTELY ADD 1-1.5 TABLESPOONS OF VINEGAR TO THE BLEACH SOLUTION. This makes sure the bleach is in it's optimum cleaning range pH wise. Also of note is purchase/use off-brand bleach as it's a stronger & I believe purer clorine product than Clorox, Purex, etc.

I'm with others, quit fermenting in the closet and move it somewhere. Also as stated by GSB, are you bottling the bier? If not you may be wasting a lot lot lot of money. I think I've read the whole thread and haven't seen anyone suggest taking some samples to a HB club meeting &/or your local HB shop. You can get informed feedback from these sources.

Schlante & Good Luck,
Phillip

Ps Brewing should be fun not frustrating.

ABSOLUTELY ADD 1-1.5 TABLESPOONS OF VINEGAR TO THE BLEACH SOLUTION. This makes sure the bleach is in it's optimum cleaning range pH wise.

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While it is true that lowering the PH with vinegar will increase the oxidizing power of the bleach (by producing more hypochlorous acid) it also produces chlorine gas -which will burn your eyes, throat, etc and can in fact kill you. If you do this, make sure you are in a well ventilated area, and that there aren't any children or pets around.

Don't take my word for it: http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchemicals/a/Mixing-Bleach-And-Vinegar.htm

I had a similar problem when I started. Couldn`t make an extract kit to save my ass. I bleached all my plastics, switched to AG full boils and moved out of the kitchen to the garage, problem solved. I really think it was something in my air vents. We have a great room with the living room, dining room and kitchen all together and there is a vent right over where i would work. I suggest as others have, bleach EVERYTHING and either move outside or at least turn off you AC/Heat anytime your wort is exposed. An extra measure if sanitation is to lay down tin foil on your work surfaces and spray with starsan.

VB

Slurm said:

While it is true that lowering the PH with vinegar will increase the oxidizing power of the bleach (by producing more hypochlorous acid) it also produces chlorine gas -which will burn your eyes, throat, etc and can in fact kill you.

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It is called Mustard Gas, yeah, the stuff they used in WWI

VB

It sounds like your sanitation practices are spot on. Why do you suspect an infection? Pictures?

Slurm said:

While it is true that lowering the PH with vinegar will increase the oxidizing power of the bleach (by producing more hypochlorous acid) it also produces chlorine gas -which will burn your eyes, throat, etc and can in fact kill you.

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Only if you're dumb enough or ill-informed enough to dump the vinegar directly into the bleach! In 5-6 gals of water it won't make a hill of beans. This comes from the owner of StarSan who worked as a chemist for Clorox for a decade or so before going off on his own.

Schlante,
Phillip

Ps I like to mix bleach and brake fluid in my spare time... thinking about playing around with pool supplies too!:fro:

Pps Disclaimer: don't mix the bleach and vinegar... for that matter don't mix bleach and anything. Fill the receptacle with water then add the bleach and vinegar, you will have no problems! You'll get more chlorine gas off of dumping bleach into really hot water than you will with this which produces none.