Double Red Recipe Critique/Help

Hello. I am working out a recipe for a double red ale. I shooting for a high alcohol malty beer with a double IPA hop schedule somewhere around a 1.2 IBU/SG ratio. I plan on brewing a 7 gallon batch and aging in my 5.2 gallon oak barrel for 6-8 weeks after primary fermentation is complete.

Here is my first stab at the grain bill.

14lb American 2-Row
4.25lb German Munich
2lb CaraRed
2lb Rye Malt
1.25lb Crystal 40
1lb Crystal 90
.5lb Torrified Wheat

Estimated SG is 1.092.

As far as hop schedule goes I have columbus (leaf), (northern brewer (leaf), Nugget (leaf), Chinook (pellet), Perle (pellet), and Willamette (pellet) to work with. I am leaning towards a combo of columbus, northern brewer and Chinook. Could anyone suggest a strong hop schedule they have had success with using a combination of these hops in the 120 IBU range?

As far as yeast I have a brand new packet of Pacman yeast Ive been dying to try or a big California Ale starter from a batch of imperial stout I recently brewed. I am leaning towards the Pacman but wanted to get opinions on this choice as well.

Any suggestions comments would be greatly appreciated, and of course thanks in advance for any help.

I think 4+ lbs of crystal is going to be too much for a beer that is already going to be big/sweet. I'd cut that in half and add a touch of darker malt to make up the color, and more base malt to replace the gravity.

Columbus, Northern Brewer, Chinook sounds like a good/interesting combo. I really like Columbus to bitter. If I was doing a barrel aged hoppy beer I would skip the flavor/aroma additions and just dry hop after it ages. I really don't like the flavor of oxidized American hops, and that's all you'll have left from late boil additions after a couple months in a barrel at room temp (if you could refrigerate your barrel that would really help, something Firestone Walker does for their barrels.)

Pacman sounds like a good choice, especially if you go heavy on the crystal. I’d toss the American yeast, after it makes it though a big/hoppy Imperial Stout the cells are not going to be healthy enough to deal with another beer.

Good luck, and welcome to the board.

It's a bit muddled. I don't think you will taste the rye especially if you are doing secondary in oak. Just too much going on.

Cut the rye.
Cut the caramel/crystal malts to 1-1.5 lbs at most.
Throw in a touch of a dark malt, literally just 2-4oz, enough to get you the color you want.
Add more base malt to make up the difference.

I agree with old sock about hop additions. I would just bitter and the add a 20-15 min addition just to get a back bone for the flavor. Then add what you planned for your KO additions to your dry hop. I would personally use Columbus, nugget, and chinook as they are all potent and aggressive enough to stand up to the malt bill and not be overpowered by the oak.

What's a double red? Is this basically a strong version of an Irish red?

Oldsock, Dirty Martini thank you both for your inputs, I agree with both of your suggestions. Im going to drop the rye and reduce the crystals. What would you suggest adding as a dark malt? Dark Patent or Chocolate Malt? I have seen some red ales use flaked barley as well would this get me to the color Im looking for?

I have only done one batch with my new barrel and have never heard of that issue with the hops oxidizing. I will definitely skip the late addition hops and go with a large dry hop instead. Thanks for that very informative tip.

Dave- Not sure if double red is an actual category or not, in my head im thinking what a double ipa is to an ipa I want this double red to be to a red ale. Stronger, hoppier, etc.

Biscostew said:

Oldsock, Dirty Martini thank you both for your inputs, I agree with both of your suggestions. Im going to drop the rye and reduce the crystals. What would you suggest adding as a dark malt? Dark Patent or Chocolate Malt? I have seen some red ales use flaked barley as well would this get me to the color Im looking for?

I have only done one batch with my new barrel and have never heard of that issue with the hops oxidizing. I will definitely skip the late addition hops and go with a large dry hop instead. Thanks for that very informative tip.

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I'd go chocolate, it has a less acrid flavor than black patent. Carafa or carafa special would be a fine choice as well.

Flaked barley doesn't give much color, just helps with head retention.

Hops are one of the first things to go from a fresh beer. Some people don't mind it, but I think there is nothing that tastes worse than an old American IPA. When I brew IPAs I go all out to prevent oxidation, flushing everything the beer touches after fermentation with CO2.

Taking old sock and dirty martini's advice here is my second version of the double red ale

17.5lb American 2 Row 71.8%
4.25lb Munich Malt 17.4%
1.25lb Crystal 90 5.1%
.75lb Carared 3.1%
.5lb Torrified Wheat 2.1%
.13lb Carafa III .5%

Hops:

2 oz Columbus 15.2 AA 60 min 53.1 IBU
2 oz Chinook 10.2 AA 60 min 39.6 IBU
1 oz Columbus 15.2 AA 20 min 16.1 IBU
.85 oz Chinnook 10.2 AA 20 min 10.2 IBU

Dry Hop
Columbus not sure of amount yet

Use pacman yeast, mash around 153 for 60 mins.

Any thoughts on the revisions? Sock, I was wondering if Carafa III would be ok as I have a bunch left over from a black IPA I did.

Thanks for all the Help!

forgot to mention SG will be the same at 1.092 and efficiency at 73%

Biscostew said:

Taking old sock and dirty martini's advice here is my second version of the double red ale

17.5lb American 2 Row 71.8%
4.25lb Munich Malt 17.4%
1.25lb Crystal 90 5.1%
.75lb Carared 3.1%
.5lb Torrified Wheat 2.1%
.13lb Carafa III .5%

Hops:

2 oz Columbus 15.2 AA 60 min 53.1 IBU
2 oz Chinook 10.2 AA 60 min 39.6 IBU
1 oz Columbus 15.2 AA 20 min 16.1 IBU
.85 oz Chinnook 10.2 AA 20 min 10.2 IBU

Dry Hop
Columbus not sure of amount yet

Use pacman yeast, mash around 153 for 60 mins.

Any thoughts on the revisions? Sock, I was wondering if Carafa III would be ok as I have a bunch left over from a black IPA I did.

Thanks for all the Help!

Click to expand...

Carafa III is perfect and your amount is fine. I still think 2lbs of crystal/caramel malts is too much. I wouldnt go higher than 1.5lbs. If you really want to use both caramel malts, I would go .75lb of carared and .75lb of crystal 90. Just gives you a nice blend but neither overpowers. Just out of curiousity, why .5lb of torrified wheat? I say drop that and just up your Munich to an even 5lb. As you can tell, Im big on simplifying the recipe. Between the malts, hops, and barrel you arent going to be able to discern everything. Based on your quantities, this would be my simplified recipe.

17.5lb 2-row
5lb Munich
.75lb crystal 90
.75lb carared
.13lb carafa III

If you needed that extra .5lb to make up for the wheat, just bump up either the 2-row or munich .5lb.

As for the hops, Im trying to figure out how 4oz of high AA hops are only getting you 90ish IBUs. I think 1 oz of each is plenty at 60. I would also mash closer to 150. A 153 degree mash with this many strong malty elements would likely leave you with a really rich hoppy barleywine. While you want malty, you dont want cloying. With this many fermentables, 150 is a better bet.

One last thing, I wouldnt dry hop the beer until 2 weeks before you are ready to keg/bottle it. You want those dry hops to be as fresh and at the last minute. If you dry hop too long you will end up with vegetal flavors

I use a small amount of wheat in this case torrified because thats all I have to aid in head retention. As far as the IBU's are concerned I just entered the information into BeerSmith and those are the numbers I got, Im not sure if I don't have it calibrated or what but I will definitely cross reference the amounts with some of the online IBU calculators just to be sure as the last thing I want with this beer is a hop bomb.

The total crystal is still only 8% of the malt bill. 2lbs sounds like a lot but from a percentage of grain perspective it's not that much.

I would probably mash a touch lower, though.