First Belgian (Triple) IPA Recipe Attempt -- Critique Please

Hi all, please find my first attempt at a Belgian IPA recipe. All style arguments aside what I am looking to make something between a Belgian Pale and Golden Strong with a strong American hop presence. I've really enjoyed the Dominus Vobiscum Lupulus, and that is pretty much what I am aiming for.

Thanks for the feedback!


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.01 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.20 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.090 SG
Estimated Color: 12.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 65.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type %/IBU
11 lbs 7.9 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 67.1 %
2 lbs 7.2 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 14.3 %
1 lbs 8.5 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.9 %
1 lbs 1.1 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 6.2 %
5.5 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2.0 %
4.1 oz Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 1.5 %
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 12.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 19.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 11.9 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining -
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 1.2 IBUs
0.33 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 1.7 IBUs
0.33 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 2.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg Belgian Ale (White Labs #WLP550) Yeast -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 7 Days Hop 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 7 Days Hop 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 17 lbs 2.3 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 21.11 qt of water at 167.0 F 153.0 F 90 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 3 steps (Drain mash tun, , 1.38gal, 1.38gal) of 168.0 F water

i think this recipe looks great! i love the concept, though haven't had the dominus vobiscum. the only thing i'd worry about is that there might be too much going on with the belgian yeast, five types of malt, three different hops, and a lot of alcohol. even if you simplify it a bit, you'll still get a lot of complexity there. also, i know that saaz hops are common in belgian beers, but i think you should go with just american hops for this one.

Reminds me of this video that I watched yesterday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0sSKHzmhrzY

fivepoundpossum said:

i think this recipe looks great! i love the concept, though haven't had the dominus vobiscum. the only thing i'd worry about is that there might be too much going on with the belgian yeast, five types of malt, three different hops, and a lot of alcohol. even if you simplify it a bit, you'll still get a lot of complexity there. also, i know that saaz hops are common in belgian beers, but i think you should go with just american hops for this one.

Click to expand...

Point taken, but let me tell you my thinking and see if you still feel the same way.

First of all, the Lupulus is 10%, uses Belgian ale yeast, and is hopped with Saaz, Amarillo and Simcoe. I'm not trying to clone it exactly, but it is my favorite version of this style so far, so it has figured large in my mind when designing this recipe. Based on my research it seems like where people go wrong with Belgian IPAs is by using too much bittering hops and overriding the subtleties of the Belgian yeast. It seems like worrying less about the bittering and letting the alcohol, malt and yeast flavors work in the lower part of the flavor while using more aroma hops plus dry hoping and belgian yeast esthers for nose and top flavor is the way to go.

I know that Lupulus is 70 ibus, but I've seen many that are around 50, relying on the dry-hop flavor and aroma and the esthers from the yeast to round out the flavor.

I would definitely use Saaz and like to mix hops in the same way. Saaz will impart a great flavor to the beer. I would probably add the 1.00 oz. at 15 minutes or later, however, instead of 20.

My only other concern would be a lack of normal caramel or cara-pils for head retention. I've never heard of caramunich having the same qualities as those two types of grain for making sure that there is enough protein to build the head. That will obviously help with the aromas that you are creating with the hops. I know the wheat malt might help a bit too, but I'd probably add .5-.75 lbs of either caramel 10L-80L, cara-pils, or torrified wheat and subtract from the wheat malt, the munich, the caramunich, or a combination of the 3.

Which yeast are you using? If you're looking for that sweet, spicy, clove-y belgian thing, I have had great luck with WLP500.

i see what you're saying. for some reason, i can't picture saaz, simcoe, and amarillo together, but i've never tried a beer with that combination. if it works for the one you're using as a model, i don't see why you shouldn't go for it.

i think your idea of easing up on the bittering hops and focusing more on the flavor and aroma additions makes a lot of sense.

Achouffe Tripel IPA uses 550 yeast along with Saaz, Amarillo and CTZ, which is pretty similar to your recipe, although Achouffe is simpler and less malty. One thing to bear in mind is that 1oz of simcoe will crush 1oz of saaz beneath its bootheel. I would gladly drink your beer.

Herky21 said:

I would definitely use Saaz and like to mix hops in the same way. Saaz will impart a great flavor to the beer. I would probably add the 1.00 oz. at 15 minutes or later, however, instead of 20.

My only other concern would be a lack of normal caramel or cara-pils for head retention. I've never heard of caramunich having the same qualities as those two types of grain for making sure that there is enough protein to build the head. That will obviously help with the aromas that you are creating with the hops. I know the wheat malt might help a bit too, but I'd probably add .5-.75 lbs of either caramel 10L-80L, cara-pils, or torrified wheat and subtract from the wheat malt, the munich, the caramunich, or a combination of the 3.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice Herky, I figured that the wheat malt might do the head retention trick, but I'm gonna spend some more time looking at my malt bill and perhaps swith out the caramunich for carapils and the wheat malt for torrified wheat.

tre9er said:

Which yeast are you using? If you're looking for that sweet, spicy, clove-y belgian thing, I have had great luck with WLP500.

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I had planned to go with the WLP550 - Belgian Ale. It looks like that one is a bit less fruity than WLP500. Do you have any experience with 550?

It is very complicated. Way too much for my liking, but it may be pretty good.

The biggest problem I see is that it is going to be sweet. Mashing at 153 with a 1.092 OG is going to get you somewhere around a 1.025 FG, (maybe low 20s with that yeast). Belgians like to dry out, and adding sugar and mashing low is how to achieve it. You want to try and end up below 1.010. Anywhere between 1.005 and 1.012 would probably be good.

Think about mashing in the high 140s and using 10 to 15% plain table sugar.

To get the best out of the yeast you should ferment high. I like that yeast at about 74 F.

To get 10% and dry, you'll want to go from 1.088 to 1.010, or something in that neighborhood, which would be roughly 88% attenuation. I'd drop the Caramunich for sure, and maybe the Munich. You'll also need to bump the sugar. Save some Loonies; skip the candi sugar and use plain table sugar after the fermentation slows. You could try bottle-culturing the same yeast the brewery uses, or buy the strain that sounds best to you. I like 530 and 550 better than 500, no matter what's in the rest of the recipe.

Thanks for all the great feedback and advice. I've updated the recipe a bit based on the suggestions I got. What do you all think?

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.01 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.20 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.078 SG
Estimated Color: 11.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 60.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name %/IBU
10 lbs Pilsner 70.9 %
1 lbs 14.5 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L 13.5 %
1 lbs Wheat, Torrified 7.1 %
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - First Wort 90.0 15.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - First Wort 90.0 min 7.3 IBUs
1 lbs 3.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) 8.4 %
0.25 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min 9.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min 10.8 IBUs
0.25 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min 8.3 IBUs
0.95 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min 3.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min 1.3 IBUs
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 5.0 mi 1.4 IBUs
0.25 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min 2.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Belgian Ale (White Labs #WLP550)
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Day Hop
0.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 14 lbs 1.5 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 17.68 qt of water at 158.1 F 148.0 F 90 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 3 steps (Drain mash tun, , 1.57gal, 1.57gal) of 168.0 F water

i like the grain bill better now that it's simplified. i think calder and kingwood-kid are right on with the advice to dry it out with table sugar and the low mash temp. tripels should be pretty dry afterall...i'd be excited to try one of these.

Alright all, after a little more fiddling here is an updated version that I think should be close to the final.

Two questions I have is whether you all think I should take the Simcoe out of the dry hop, and if I should keep the flameout additions. Also any more suggestions of the grain bill, hop additions, or mash and fermentation time and temps would, of course, be appreciated.

Cheers!

Est Orginal Gravity - 1.077
IBU - 57.7
SRM - 6.9
Est Final Gravity - 1.008
Est ABV - 9.2%

Ingredients
---------------------------
9.75 lbs - Pilsner (Belgian) - 72.2%
1 lbs - Caravienne Malt - 7.0%
1 lbs - Wheat, Torrified - 7.0%
1.75 lbs - Table Sugar - 13.0%

.50 oz Amarillo @ FWH 90min - 16.5 IBU
.50 oz Saaz @ FWH 90min - 7.8 IBU
.25 oz Simcoe @ 45min - 9.8 IBU
.25 oz Simcoe @ 30min - 8.2 IBu
.50 oz Saaz @ 15min - 3.3 IBU
.25 oz Amarillo @ 15min - 3.5 IBU
.25 oz Simcoe @ 15min - 5.3 IBu
.50 oz Saaz @ 5 min - 1.3 IBU
.25 oz Amarillo @ 5min - 1.4 IBU
1.0 oz Saaz @ Flameout
.50 oz Amarillo @ Flameout
1.0 oz Amarillo Dry hop @ lager temp. secondary for 21 days
.50 oz Simcoe Dry Hop @ lager temp. secondary for 21 days

Yeast - Belgian Ale - White Labs WLP550

Mash
------------------------
Step 1: 20mins @ 144.0 F
Step 2: 70mins @ 154.0 F

Batch Sparge with 2.54 Gallons @ 168.0 F

Fermentation
-------------------------
Primary: 14 days @ 75 F
Secondary: 21 days @ 35 F

Brewyourown mag, vol18, no3, has plenty tips and recipies on how to brew your own tripel. Especially fermentation temps and mash schedules are discussed and give an idea of the variables important to control when brewing a tripel. The tripel recipes are in general not at all complex, and can be made with sugar and pilsner malt as the only fermentables. I found the article in byo very inspiring, and my next beer will be a classic tripel. I would definitely use the old belgian trick of adding the sugar a couple days into fermentation, and at that point add more oxygen to further accomodate growth, this will help you get down to correct fg required for the style. Your recipe has metamorphosed since the start of this thread and looks more right now than it did on the first post. Let us know what you end up brewing.

i'd keep the hop additions the same, but i'd only dry hop for the last week it sits in the fermenter. since it's a big beer, i'd wait 3 weeks or so then pitch the dry hops. like yeastforbrains said, adding the sugar after the primary fermentation has begun is also a good idea.

fivepoundpossum said:

i'd keep the hop additions the same, but i'd only dry hop for the last week it sits in the fermenter. since it's a big beer, i'd wait 3 weeks or so then pitch the dry hops. like yeastforbrains said, adding the sugar after the primary fermentation has begun is also a good idea.

Click to expand...

Yep, I'm going to keep it at 75 F for two weeks and then lager it at 35 F (or so, I'll be using nature's refrigerator) for 3 weeks with the dry hops. I've read elsewhere that this method helps the beer have a bright hop flavor rather than a more 'dirty' vegetal hop flavor that compete with the esters.

Still debating on adding the sugar for the last 15-20 (as others have done for this style) or adding it after 4 days of primary or so.

Though expensive (moreso at least than table sugar) I do think that using Belgian candi sugar is worth it.

TripleF said:

Though expensive (moreso at least than table sugar) I do think that using Belgian candi sugar is worth it.

Click to expand...

Do you think turbinado is a good alternative?

TripleF said:

Though expensive (moreso at least than table sugar) I do think that using Belgian candi sugar is worth it.

Click to expand...

Herky21 said:

Do you think turbinado is a good alternative?

Click to expand...

Just use plain sucrose in tripels (table sugar). It is what many of the Belgian brewers use.

Calder said:

Just use plain sucrose in tripels (table sugar). It is what many of the Belgian brewers use.

Click to expand...

I could see that in a lighter colored tripel, but what about a darker Belgian, say, a Belgian Xmas ale?

zandrsn said:

Yep, I'm going to keep it at 75 F for two weeks and then lager it at 35 F (or so, I'll be using nature's refrigerator) for 3 weeks with the dry hops. I've read elsewhere that this method helps the beer have a bright hop flavor rather than a more 'dirty' vegetal hop flavor that compete with the esters.

Still debating on adding the sugar for the last 15-20 (as others have done for this style) or adding it after 4 days of primary or so.

Click to expand...

So, how you getting along with your tripel?
I thought I'd post the recipe I just brewed and in the making, with all my notes so far during the process. Hope it may come in useful. Here goes:

KB Tripel Clone

Recipe specifics:

Style: Belgian Tripel
Batch size: 19 l
Boil volume: 25.0 l
Measured/calculated OG: 1.082
Measured FG: 1.006
Bitterness (IBU): 38.4
Color (SRM): 4.6
ABV: 10.3%

Grain/Sugars:

6.00 kg Pilsener (Belgian), 87.0%
0.90 kg Table Sugar, 13.0%, boil for 0 min

Hops:

50.00 g Kent Golding (AA 6.0%, Pellet) 60 min, 35.9 IBU
25.00 g Hersbrucker (AA 4.2%, Pellet) 5 min, 2.5 IBU

Yeast/Misc:

Irish Moss, 1.0 unit(s), Fining , boil 15 min
Trappist High Gravity, 1.0 unit(s), Yeast Wyeast 3787
3 liter starter, cold crashed after about 20 hours activity, shaken every now and again to get yeast stay in suspension.

Recipe Notes:

KB clone.

Batch Notes:

Brewday, 3 november 2012. Mashed in 15 liters for 50 minutes at 60°C, then heated until 65°C and rested for 40 minutes, ramped temp up to 72°C by adding 7 liters water at 95° (mash tun full at this point), let rest for 15 mins then ranoff until empty. Addition of 8 liters water at 95° increased mash temp to 78°. Let rest 10 minutes then 2nd. runoff until empty. Collected 18.5 liters @ OG=1.068 (sugar not yet added). Pitched slurry from 3 liter starter and ran oxygen pump for 1 hour. Fermentation started quickly and worked very fast. When adding the sugar, the fermenting beer volume should increase to about 19 liters and the calculated OG of 1.082. 6 nov., added 700g. sugar boiled 10 minutes in 400 ml water (chilled to 22°C). Oxygen pump , 1 hour. Will add the remaining ~200 g. sugar (~900g. total sugar addition) at bottling stage. 9/nov, SG=1.006. 11/nov, SG=1.006. 13/nov, SG=1.006. 16/nov, FG=1.006, bottled with 200 g. sugar. Scraped the cake with sterilized spoon to get some yeast back in suspension then racked to bottling bucket. Stirred bottling bucket with same sterilized spoon to distribute yeast and sugar. Total 18 liter bottled. Hope yeast have enough strength to do a final fermentation in the bottle. Harvested some of the yeast cake. Taste notes after 1 week in bottle. Very green, as expected, lots of pear/apple/banana/bubble gum type aromas, but no sulfur. Strong alcohol bite. Carbonation weak, but in the making.
No worries at this point.

Herky21 said:

I could see that in a lighter colored tripel, but what about a darker Belgian, say, a Belgian Xmas ale?

Click to expand...

I'm not going to argue about the merits of darker Belgian sugars, I agree, the darker syrups add unique flavors. The subject was tripel.

Calder said:

I'm not going to argue about the merits of darker Belgian sugars, I agree, the darker syrups add unique flavors. The subject was tripel.

Click to expand...

Yes, I believe the general consensus is that the so called "Belgian candi sugar" is unnecessary, and that all you need in a tripel is 100% fermentable, tasteless, transparent sugar, to add the alcohol and to end up on the low FG that characterizes the style.

Calder said:

I'm not going to argue about the merits of darker Belgian sugars, I agree, the darker syrups add unique flavors. The subject was tripel.

Click to expand...

I am currently trying to pick out sugar for a dark Belgian and am looking for some opinions on the subject. My current plan is turbinado $3.99 for 2 lbs.

I made a tripel IPA with ~90IBUs and the gravity drop says 9% abv. I did 50/50 pils/2-row and 1 lb light candi sugar for a 3-gallon batch. Glacier hops only. I used my own harvested blend of Ommegang's brett B and wlp500. My simplest and best recipe to date - of course I've only been brewing since I got a starter equipment kit last Christmas! After reading this, I plan on converting the recipe into a 1-gallon batch using table sugar instead of candi to see if I notice a difference. It'll save 5-6 dollars from the grain bill if table sugar does the trick.

loftybrewer said:

I made a tripel IPA with ~90IBUs and the gravity drop says 9% abv. I did 50/50 pils/2-row and 1 lb light candi sugar for a 3-gallon batch. Glacier hops only. I used my own harvested blend of Ommegang's brett B and wlp500. My simplest and best recipe to date - of course I've only been brewing since I got a starter equipment kit last Christmas! After reading this, I plan on converting the recipe into a 1-gallon batch using table sugar instead of candi to see if I notice a difference. It'll save 5-6 dollars from the grain bill if table sugar does the trick.

Click to expand...

When did you start this? WLP500 + Brett-B; it ain't finished yet, and will keep going for up to 18 months.

In the presence of Sacc, Brett works slowly, and can take about 8 months to reach it's maximum population. It will slowly work on the more complex sugars creating more carbonation, and start converting many of the sacc created esters to more 'Rustic' flavors.

It should be interesting to see how it changes over time. 3 gallons = 30 bottles. I'd suggest you drink 1 or 2 a month to see how it develops over time, and if it gets too lively (gushers) fridge them at that point and finish them off fairly quickly.

The Tripel IPA was brewed in July, bottled in August. I don't want to change the subject on here, but I have three 1-gallon experiments sitting pretty right now with white labs brett b, brett c, and brett l. Interestingly, they all took a 1.040 50/50 hefe wort down to 1.010. It's been consistent now since August. No grav change. That's only 75% attenuation. What you are talking about depends on several factors - mash temp, malts used, and other organisms present. Also, eating garbage like brett does won't necessarily change the specific gravity, it will just develop flavors. The Trappist style ale that I fermented with this blend lost a ton of chocolatey flavor but kept the same grav reading. I only know what I have read on these forums and my own experiences. What I know for sure is that I have achieved stable gravity readings and bottled 3 separate batches using this blend.

loftybrewer said:

The Tripel IPA was brewed in July, bottled in August. I don't want to change the subject on here, but I have three 1-gallon experiments sitting pretty right now with white labs brett b, brett c, and brett l. Interestingly, they all took a 1.040 50/50 hefe wort down to 1.010. It's been consistent now since August. No grav change. That's only 75% attenuation. What you are talking about depends on several factors - mash temp, malts used, and other organisms present. Also, eating garbage like brett does won't necessarily change the specific gravity, it will just develop flavors. The Trappist style ale that I fermented with this blend lost a ton of chocolatey flavor but kept the same grav reading. I only know what I have read on these forums and my own experiences. What I know for sure is that I have achieved stable gravity readings and bottled 3 separate batches using this blend.

Click to expand...

Take 2 bottles of Orval, a fresh one and one that is a couple of years old. The taste and effervescence will be very different. I couldn't quite figure out if your Brett experiments were with just Brett or a mix with a sacc yeast. If just Brett yeast, it will act similarly to sacc yeast; reproduce quickly, and quit around 75% attenuation.

If Brett is in a mix with sacc, the sacc will win the race of the oxygen in the wort, leaving the Brett to reproduce anaerobically and feed on the dead sacc cells. It will slowly breakdown some of the more complex sugars, and will produce more alcohol and CO2.

Brewed in July. That's 4 months, the Brett is still growing it's population. Leave a couple of bottles on the side and see for yourself what happens in a year.

Herky21 said:

I am currently trying to pick out sugar for a dark Belgian and am looking for some opinions on the subject. My current plan is turbinado $3.99 for 2 lbs.

Click to expand...

For a dark belgian I would go for Candi Syrup. I used they're 45L and 90L in a trappist style quad I made a month or so ago and am loving the flavor it gave.

yeastforbrains said:

So, how you getting along with your tripel?

Click to expand...

I feel pretty good about my recipe now (though the hop additions and amounts are a bit of a crap shoot), but unfortunately I'm having to wait a bit to brew this one. Since I don't have a fermentation chamber I'm going to have to wait for the outdoor temp to drop consistently below 40F in order to keep my unheated basement in the 50s for the lagering step. It's been a pretty warm late fall up here in Toronto so far.

i'm excited to see how this one turns out. i've tried a few belgian ipa's and none have lived up to my expectations. the concept is great, why do so many people mess it up?!