Surly Abrasive clone

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Merwin's has Abrasive in stock now.

http://www.shopmerwins.com/893354001096.html

Just received mine today. Tastes so good it makes me want to learn to brew just so I can make nothing but this. That's kinda how I found this thread....

Merwin has a good reputation? Have only read about France44 and been waiting on them to put abrasive up forever. With a min. order of 40 bucks at Merwin, that's coming to 75 to ship to me for two 4 packs of Abrasive and a 4 pack of coffee bender. 6 bucks a beer, not too bad really. But I can make 15 gallons of this for 50 bucks.
 
Merwin has a good reputation? Have only read about France44 and been waiting on them to put abrasive up forever. With a min. order of 40 bucks at Merwin, that's coming to 75 to ship to me for two 4 packs of Abrasive and a 4 pack of coffee bender. 6 bucks a beer, not too bad really. But I can make 15 gallons of this for 50 bucks.

Yeah Merwin's is most definitely on the up and up. A bit more low key than France44 which is a very good thing. WET came and want so fast on 44 that most people assumed it never went up which could be what happened with Abrasive.
 
Planning on making an Abrasive Clone, anyone used this recipe in a while?
 
Planning on making an Abrasive Clone, anyone used this recipe in a while?

I've done my version twice now and love it. I've never had the real thing though. I am getting a shipment of Abrasive Friday and will taste and see if my recipe was right or not and brew it again this weekend or next.
 
theveganbrewer said:
I've done my version twice now and love it. I've never had the real thing though. I am getting a shipment of Abrasive Friday and will taste and see if my recipe was right or not and brew it again this weekend or next.

Awesome, gonna try and find some Citra out here and give it a whirl

No changes to the original setup? Mash at 148 etc?
 
Not that I know of at this time, my Abrasive will come Friday. I had a bunch of BMC drinkers kick my first keg in less than a day, it's tasty. I think it came out a few points of SRM light based off of another poster's comments, but it's hard to tell in photos. I'd probably try it like it is.
 
theveganbrewer said:
Not that I know of at this time, my Abrasive will come Friday. I had a bunch of BMC drinkers kick my first keg in less than a day, it's tasty. I think it came out a few points of SRM light based off of another poster's comments, but it's hard to tell in photos. I'd probably try it like it is.

Sounds good, ill do that.

Can't remember if it was stated or not, but what kinda time did it stay in primary/secondary? I do bottle
 
Two weeks then dryhop for 10 days, then bottle. If you're not brewing till the weekend, I'll try to remember and post on here Friday night if there was anything off in my recipe that I remember after tasting the real thing. The one thing I found original with this beer was the taste of the oats, so I want to see if it's noticeable in the real thing. Were you able to get them? The Naked Oats?
 
theveganbrewer said:
Two weeks then dryhop for 10 days, then bottle. If you're not brewing till the weekend, I'll try to remember and post on here Friday night if there was anything off in my recipe that I remember after tasting the real thing. The one thing I found original with this beer was the taste of the oats, so I want to see if it's noticeable in the real thing. Were you able to get them? The Naked Oats?

I can get them online for sure, but I am checking my local shop tomorrow. Probably wont brew this weekend. Most likely the next
 
I emailed Todd Haug from Surly asking for help on this because mine wound up with a "hot" off flavor. My problem was two fold, I fermented too high especially during high krausen (73-75). Also, I used corn sugar. Todd indicated they ferment Abrasive at 66 degrees and also said using brewers crystals is essential to produce the right flavor. Be sure to use Golden Naked Oats, not flaked oats.
 
I emailed Todd Haug from Surly asking for help on this because mine wound up with a "hot" off flavor. My problem was two fold, I fermented too high especially during high krausen (73-75). Also, I used corn sugar. Todd indicated they ferment Abrasive at 66 degrees and also said using brewers crystals is essential to produce the right flavor. Be sure to use Golden Naked Oats, not flaked oats.

Thanks for the intel. Here's a bit on brewer's crystals in case any folks haven't heard of them:

"Granulated corn syrup solids with dextrose mostly converted to maltose, ~56%. This sugar mimics the fermentable/unfermentable ratio of sugars of barley malt wort. A good gravity booster when additional alcohol and dextrines are desired but additional malt flavor, aroma and color are not.

So when I did the recipe I knew of the BC but couldn't find any. I personally don't think that if they're using less than 5, maybe 10 percent, you won't taste it. Perhaps a reasonable substitute would be a dextrose/malodextrine combo?

I think the key to this recipe is the % of Golden Naked Oats in the recipe. When I crack one today I should be able to tell if my initial percentage was too high or too low, GNO are very unique in taste.
 
Then, Brewers Crystals (dextrose converted 56% of the way to maltose) seem like they would just benefit the beer more since we want the yeast to get busy on maltose and maltriose, not so much glucose, sucrose, and fructose.

I think the key to this recipe is the % of Golden Naked Oats in the recipe.

Probably only 3-4% I'm assuming. Or perhaps plain Fawcett Oat Malt.
 
I sent Todd the all grain recipe from here posted by theveganbrewer after he responded to my initial email. I basically asked him if we were on the right track and he hasn't yet responded. Not sure if that is because he is too busy or that the recipe is so close that he doesn't want to tip his hand ;)

Also, I know that based on my multiple tours of the brewery, Surly relies on 0 minute additions for Furious and Abrasive (in this case Citra) and centrifuge to remove their hops, yeast, etc. This addition really accentuates the unreal hop flavor and aroma that is immediately noticeable. This is one thing for the homebrew version I did that was really missing. The smells and flavors were on and there, just not to nearly the same level as the real thing. There is actually a video on youtube that I have linked. I think this process can't be replicated by homebrewers and will in my opinion make it difficult to come up with an identical clone. Based on the last tour I was on, I was led to believe this centrifuge process really puts the hop flavor and aroma over the top. Brew on friends, Cheers!

 
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Cool video. I wonder what he means when he said they get better aroma when using the centrifuge. I have read some research that says it gives better aroma per unit of hops, giving breweries the ability to use less hops and get the same or more out of them. I think that is what he's getting at, since he goes on later to talk about how the ingredients are all becoming more expensive, and this centrifuge is a way to get the same hop flavor while using less hops.

I think homebrewers can do a few things to get killer aroma and they all happen after the burner gets turned off. First, let the whirlpool hops steep, don't be afraid of letting the beer sit for a while before chilling. Second, think that everything that touches your beer after the burner gets turned off is only out to remove your precious hop aroma. Try to keep the beer out of contact with as much as possible. That also means not dryhopping when the yeast is still in suspension. Third, dryhop warm, 65 degrees or better, for optimal flavor extraction. Lastly, rouse the hops during the dryhop and keep them moving through the beer. You will extract significantly more aroma this way. I prefer dryhopping in a warm keg and letting it sit at room temperature while dryhopping and either shooting a few shots of CO2 through the liquid out tube to rouse the hops or if they're in a weighted bag, rolling the keg gently back and forth every few hours to move it around.
 
Some awesome info in this here thread! I am looking forward to what Tom has to say in the email back.

I am gonna hit my brew shop here in a few, see what they have and pick up some goodies.

I dont have any yeast starter stuff, so that may be a good idea
 
Tried to find my local shop, Aparrently they closed! So that's gone poorly
 
Finally tasted the real thing tonight! I'd say after the taste and reading bobbrews, I'd agree, the naked oats need to come down, probably to 10 ounces, or maybe even 8. Mine was quite a bit nuttier than the real thing. As far as hops, you can get this aroma with the recipe, just focus on whirlpool and dryhop warm.

img20130201171457.jpg
 
Anyone think they might include Warrior in the dryhop? I'm not getting a 100% Citra bomb on this, and I've brewed a few of them before. There is a little spice/pine/onion/garlic in the nose for sure on this one.
 
theveganbrewer said:
Anyone think they might include Warrior in the dryhop? I'm not getting a 100% Citra bomb on this, and I've brewed a few of them before. There is a little spice/pine/onion/garlic in the nose for sure on this one.

You tell me! Haha I am down for whatever changes you think are appropriate
 
I think this is a 18-21 day grain to glass so I'll brew one up tomorrow and will save a few cans of Abrasive for a side by side. I'd like to dial in the naked golden oat addition.

I will brew this:

40.8% 2-row
40.8% Golden Promise
7.1% Corn Sugar
7.1% Crystal 20
4.3% Golden Naked Oats

& try 6 ounces of malto-dextrine

I will change the 0 minute to 1.5 citra and 0.5 Warrior and the dry hop will be 2-3 ounces of Citra for 3 days. I can always add another ounce of Citra.
 
theveganbrewer said:
I think this is a 18-21 day grain to glass so I'll brew one up tomorrow and will save a few cans of Abrasive for a side by side. I'd like to dial in the naked golden oat addition.

I will brew this:

40.8% 2-row
40.8% Golden Promise
7.1% Corn Sugar
7.1% Crystal 20
4.3% Golden Naked Oats

& try 6 ounces of malto-dextrine

I will change the 0 minute to 1.5 citra and 0.5 magnum and the dry hop will be 2 ounces of Citra for 3 days. I can always add another ounce of Citra.

Alrighty I am gonna have to convert those to lbs real quick haha
 
Oh, 5lb 12 ounce on each grain, 1 pound of corn sugar, 1 pound of C20, 10 ounces of Golden Naked Oats, and 6 ounces of Malto-dextrine.
 
theveganbrewer said:
Oh, 5lb 12 ounce on each grain, 1 pound of corn sugar, 1 pound of C20, 10 ounces of Golden Naked Oats, and 6 ounces of Malto-dextrine.

Sweetness, I just put in an order and will brew this coming weekend
 
Magnum has almost no character. Then again neither does Warrior. Abrasive focuses on Warrior early and Citra late. I would definitely recommend 4 weeks in the primary including dryhop. I brewed a clone of this beer once by accident (wasn't even trying to, nor did I know what the recipe was) and it was a spot on clone. You'll want to use less C-20 since some sweetness will leach out from the GNO as well. No maltodextrine.
 
I meant to write Warrior, my fault. I think Warrior does have a nice dry hop character and quite a few famous IPAs dry hop with warrior.
 
theveganbrewer said:
I meant to write Warrior, my fault. I think Warrior does have a nice dry hop character and quite a few famous IPAs dry hop with warrior.

No worries I ordered warrior anyway. Also the malto dextrine change
 
The reason I am using the maltodextrine/dextrose combo is to re-create brewer's crystals which surly uses as best possible.
 
The reason I am using the maltodextrine/dextrose combo is to re-create brewer's crystals which surly uses as best possible.

I may cut back on that as I don't care for the taste of malto. What do you think about subbing it with cara-pils?
 
I may cut back on that as I don't care for the taste of malto. What do you think about subbing it with cara-pils?

I'd just leave both out if you don't care for the malto. I didn't use it on my first attempt and am just adding it this go around for fun. If I get out to my LHBS before brewing I will just buy the brewers crystals and replace all the dextrose and maltodextrine with it.
 
Magnum has almost no character. Then again neither does Warrior. Abrasive focuses on Warrior early and Citra late. I would definitely recommend 4 weeks in the primary including dryhop. I brewed a clone of this beer once by accident (wasn't even trying to, nor did I know what the recipe was) and it was a spot on clone. You'll want to use less C-20 since some sweetness will leach out from the GNO as well. No maltodextrine.

Even with a pound of C-20 it's still too light and comes in around 7.6 SRM, short of the listed 8. Unless the Surly website messed up the order, there really isn't anywhere else to get color without making golden promise the main malt with about 7 pounds and 2-row at 5.5 pounds. That with the 1# of C-20 would get you to 8SRM.

I've got my oats at 10SRM, is everyone else the same?
 
theveganbrewer said:
Even with a pound of C-20 it's still too light and comes in around 7.6 SRM, short of the listed 8. Unless the Surly website messed up the order, there really isn't anywhere else to get color without making golden promise the main malt with about 7 pounds and 2-row at 5.5 pounds. That with the 1# of C-20 would get you to 8SRM.

I've got my oats at 10SRM, is everyone else the same?

I got the same I think, 10L? Also what does malto taste like?
 
Where I bought was listed as 7-14, I went with 10, then saw Northern Brewer had it at 10. Malto helps to add body and mouthfeel without much sweetness, if you're at 6oz or 4oz, you won't necessarily taste it, you might notice it though in the feel.
 
Sorry if I have confused anyone. I think option number one would be to use a pound of brewer's crystals and nothing else. If you can't get that, make your choice of adding a pound of dextrose, or some dextrose and maltodextrin, or dextrose and carapils, it should all be close.
 
theveganbrewer said:
Sorry if I have confused anyone. I think option number one would be to use a pound of brewer's crystals and nothing else. If you can't get that, make your choice of adding a pound of dextrose, or some dextrose and maltodextrin, or dextrose and carapils, it should all be close.

No worries, ill just brew it as you had it and go with it
 
Even with a pound of C-20 it's still too light and comes in around 7.6 SRM, short of the listed 8. Unless the Surly website messed up the order, there really isn't anywhere else to get color without making golden promise the main malt with about 7 pounds and 2-row at 5.5 pounds. That with the 1# of C-20 would get you to 8SRM.

I've got my oats at 10SRM, is everyone else the same?

Rebelbrewer lists Simpsons Golden Naked Oats as 15 SRM.

And I wouldn't be worried about rounding 7.6 SRM up to 8. Even if it were off by a whole point, a slight color difference would be the least of my worries. A slight difference in color could also result from Surly's individual brewing methods (not the ingredients).
 
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