Does anyone else think Sam Adam's beer sucks

WhiskeySam said:

No, it's not embracing home brewers. It's encouraging them to participate in a competition so you can steal the best recipe and then profit from it without fairly compensating the inventor of the recipe. How many homebrewers enter this competition just for fun, then "win" and get their 5,000 dollar check, and then realize that THEIR BEER now belongs to Sam Adams and Sam Adams is profiting in perpetuity on their beer.

If this was a licensing agreement I'd have no problem with it. If there was some kind of part-ownership of the beer itself and the profits therefrom, I'd have no problem with it. But that's not what it is. It's an effort to take advantage of the "Homebrew Cred" that Jim Koch has and outsource their R&D functions to the homebrewing community.

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I cannot fathom how you came to the conclusion that Boston Brewing Company needs to outsource their R&D to eager homebrewers. Beer recipes are not some sacred cow - hence the reason so many breweries openly give out their recipes directly to their customers.

For a homebrewer who has invested no money - other than the cost of brewing a batch of beer - how do you think he or she should be more fairly treated than a wad of cash and his or her beer commercially produced and nationally distributed? Free R & D? Really?

I can guarantee you Sam Adams spends more money on their homebrew competitions than they ever recoup in sales.

I tried their variety pack a few years back. Could only finish the boston lager and noble pils. The rest were just awful tasting.

Back before I was a beer geek...BMC and Heine were what I drank...I didn't like Sam Adams. It tasted weird and bitter.

Now that I'm a homebrewer and beer geek I went to Boston and took the Sam Adams brewery tour. Boston Lager? Meh. Not bad, but kind of plain tasting. It's often the only non-BMC beer you can buy in some restaurants so if it's the only option I'll buy it just to support craft brewing.

FutureJack said:

I cannot fathom how you came to the conclusion that Boston Brewing Company needs to outsource their R&D to eager homebrewers. Beer recipes are not some sacred cow - hence the reason so many breweries openly give out their recipes directly to their customers.

For a homebrewer who has invested no money - other than the cost of brewing a batch of beer - how do you think he or she should be more fairly treated than a wad of cash and his or her beer commercially produced and nationally distributed? Free R & D? Really?

I can guarantee you Sam Adams spends more money on their homebrew competitions than they ever recoup in sales.

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Forget R&D. Forget I said it. It was a rhetorical flourish that is clearly distracting from my point.

Yes, I feel that it's entirely unfair to take a home brewers recipe, pay a small one time fee and then sell it forever as your beer without crediting the home brewer in royalty or licensing.

I'm not sure how you're in a position to guarantee anything about Sam Adams financial positions but you sound like you're really really sure. So there's that.

As a question I'd like to know which breweries gives their recipes away? Sierra Nevada and Sam list malt bills and hops, but not in percentage or in any way that constitutes a recipe. No mash profiles are provided either. The reason for that is that they are protecting their intellectual property. Their trade secrets. I agree that even mildly advanced home brewers can deconstruct recipes, but it's just not true that they're "given away".

My ***** in all of this is that Sam doesn't fairly compensate the winners of these competitions. I still feel that way.

WhiskeySam said:

Yes, I feel that it's entirely unfair to take a home brewers recipe, pay a small one time fee and then sell it forever as your beer without crediting the home brewer in royalty or licensing.

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And for the second time... they don't "sell it forever"... they are special releases that are only produced for a short period of time and the brewer's picture and name are right on the bottle.

... and everyone's point on R&D is that they don't need your, or any of our recipes. They have ZERO need to get their recipes from homebrewers. They do it as fun thing for homebrewers so they someone might be able to walk into a store and buy THEIR beer, with THEIR picture, right on the bottle.

If you don't like the concept of Boston Beer Co making whatever small amount of money they make on these small releases, that's 100% your right and don't enter the competition... but to say this is some grand screw-job that Boston Beer is pulling over on homebrewers so they can steal or profit from recipes is ridiculous.

WhiskeySam said:

Jim Koch, as a homebrewer himself, should feel nothing but shame about this.

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He is not a homebrewer, that's marketing.

He has a Harvard MBA and law degree and worked for Boston consulting. Before starting Boston beer. He didn't even brew his own beer but hired somebody to formulate a recipe and had it contract brewed out in Ohio.

Harpoon was brewing beer in mass before Sam Adams. Their Boston brewery is just for show and events. .

WhiskeySam said:

My ***** in all of this is that Sam doesn't fairly compensate the winners of these competitions. I still feel that way.

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So it's not enough that they organize what is now a huge competition, organize all of the judges, provide the space, parking etc for all of the judges, interupt their normal production schedule in the brewery, go through the Feds to get approvals for the labels, R&D the actual recipes of the winners up to scale for a large brewery, actually BREW the beer, bottle it, promote it and then push it through their distribution channels with the brewers picture and name right on the bottle... you think that's unfair and Boston Beer should cut the winner a check too??

Because they're making so much cash off of the 20 bbl run of some guy's Skullplitter clone???

WhiskeySam said:

Jim Koch, as a homebrewer himself, should feel nothing but shame about this.

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He is not a homebrewer, that's marketing.

He has a Harvard MBA and law degree and worked for Boston consulting. Before starting Boston beer. He didn't even brew his own beer but hired somebody to formulate a recipe and had it contract brewed out in Ohio.

Harpoon was brewing beer in mass before Sam Adams. Their Boston brewery is just for show and events. .

They get some stuff out thete that I might never otherwise see.

The dark roasted wheat winter lager was amazing a couple of years ago.

Haven't seen dark wheat beers other than that.

(yes i am sure they are out there)

Anyone who thinks homebrewers are getting screwed by the Sam Adam's Longshot contest seriously overestimates the value of "ideas" in the marketplace. ("Ideas" roughly translating to "recipes" here)

Ideas alone aren't worth crap. Everyone has this idea that with one big idea, they'll be set for life. But just look at how business runs. One company gets a great "idea" and tries it out. If it works, it's immediately copied by all the competitors and then the REAL race begins: to find out who can best EXECUTE the concept. Execution trumps inspiration 9 times out of 10. You think Coke was the first Cola? Starbucks the first coffee house? The IPod sure as hell wasn't the first MP3 player and neither was the IPhone the first smart phone. Ideas are cheap, but great execution is expensive and hard.

In the specific case of beer here, it is absolutely ludicrous to think that Sam Adams didn't know what an Irish Red was before some poor oppressed homebrewer sent it in. Or a Munich Lager, or a Double IPA (all from the Longshot line). They could R&D-up any style of beer they want within a few weeks. The Longshot gimmick is a PR stunt essentially, because American's love the concept of amateur's winning national contests (think American Idol and all that crap).

And remember, whatever homebrew recipe that gets selected gets modified to hell and back to make it commercially viable for the Sam Adams production system. Huge breweries like that aren't just going to start sourcing expensive ingredients because the Longshot winner's recipe calls for "2% Light Carastan". No, they are going to throw in 2% of whatever 15L crystal they get the best discount on and call it a day. Furthermore, the mash chemistry is different, the yeast is UNDOUBTEDLY different, the fermentation schedule isn't what the homebrewer did and the starting water profile for Sam can be completely off what the homebrewer uses. So to assume that a Longshot winner's recipe is what you are getting in that 12 pack is just silly. It's about as close to the homebrew as are homebrewed clones of commercial beers (which is to say, in the ballpark, but RARELY spot-on exact copies).

Perhaps if your recipe used some super secret ingredient that mainstream brewing wasn't aware of (pig ears, dirt from Venzuela, burnt pancake crumbs, etc) then maybe I could understand wanting some credit, but come one, if I send in a Czech Pils thats 100% Pislner + Saaz, do you REALLY think Sam Adams should offer me up some kind of licensing deal to re-make that beer? That's just silly.

WhiskeySam said:

Forget R&D. Forget I said it. It was a rhetorical flourish that is clearly distracting from my point.

Yes, I feel that it's entirely unfair to take a home brewers recipe, pay a small one time fee and then sell it forever as your beer without crediting the home brewer in royalty or licensing.

I'm not sure how you're in a position to guarantee anything about Sam Adams financial positions but you sound like you're really really sure. So there's that.

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No. I don't have access to the SA financials. But I have been around long enough to know these marketing stunts are not for quick profit - they are for promoting the brand. They are in investment in Boston Brewing Company. I'm sorry. This is common sense.

You also asked what brewers give their recipes away.


Have you never heard of The Brewing Network - specifically the Jamil Show/Can You Brew It?

The vast majority of those shows involve homebrewers interviewing pro brewers and attempting to clone their beers. Dozens (hundreds?) of pro brewers freely divulge their malt bills, hop varietals/percentages, yeast strains, mash temps, fermentation procedures, dry hops, etc....

Sure, a few guys keep it close to the vest, which is their right. But the real reason they don't mind sharing it? Because it doesn't matter. Because you and I can have the same recipe and make entirely different beers. Because pro breweries don't care about someone else cloning their beer. And why should they?

Sorry for belaboring the point. I was truly just astounded at the thought process of entitlement that suggests the amateur brewer is getting screwed because they were lucky enough to win a contest and have their beer brewed nationally.

Sam Adams' beer isn't the most phenomenal or interesting beer on the planet. But they have done more to promote the craft beer industry than just about any brewery in the country. Oh, that we should all be so lucky to get screwed over by winning a national homebrew competition.

They are a public company, their financial are available online.

usfmikeb said:

They are a public company, their financial are available online.

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Their breakdown of profits vs expeditures for the Longshot competition are available online?

I like Sam Adams. SA Boston Lager is my go to beer when we go out to dinner. Their Boston Lager and their Oktoberfest are the two beers that got me away from the BMC type beers and realized there were real beers out there. For a widely distributed beer company, I think they do pretty good. I don't like everything they make but overall I like them. I also like many of the Moerlein beers, some of which are made here locally.

I think you are confusing Sam Adams and New Belgium. Everything except their Lips of faith series is a disappointment. I think most of these comments (craft brew gateway, middle of the road taste, etc) all apply to new Belgium more so than SA. I think they have a few normal beers that are decent, their imperial series are strong, and I have liked quite a bit of their new stuff (Tasman Red, Verloren, Griffin's Bow, Cinder Bock). They aren't great, but much better than new Belgium. IMO.

They do make some amazing beers. Boston Lager and Noble Pills for instance.
Summer Lager I couldn't stand.
So it's like anyone else I think, some things we do are hit and miss and others are just according to personal taste.

BeerLoverHere said:

How the hell are they so popular and successful? I know marketing has a lot to do with it, but most all of their beers are awful and leave the nastiest aftertastes. It's just bad. I'm always suckered into buying something new of theirs and get pissed off thinking it'll be different, but it never is.

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What on earth is the point of this? You expect everyone else to have the same tastes as you? Is someone going to come in this thread and convince you that your taste buds are the problem? Pointless. Utterly pointless.

There are good points RE: the contest and my thoughts about it. I'll let this one go. I have my thoughts about it, but I don't see why that particularly matters. We're all on the same team here.

Thank you for your input.

They have some decent brews. They have some I don't like at all. Overall their lager or noble pils are great for occasions when I need to buy beer at good price for more than just myself.

I know this is an old forum, but I would really like someone to explain that funky aftertaste in Sam Adams beers? I can taste it in every variety and it really turns me off to this brand. I can only describe it as a sour, musty funk. It honestly makes me queasy as hell if I drink more than one.

Is this an off flavor from the yeast? It has to be.

WhiskeySam said:

My ***** in all of this is that Sam doesn't fairly compensate the winners of these competitions. I still feel that way.

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Sam Adams isn't holding a gun to anyone's head. Some people think that entering is worth it. Some people don't. It takes a special kind of person to try and tell somebody else that they are being unfairly compensated.

I like their Okterberfest and the Lager is good when I'm out.

BeerLoverHere said:

How the hell are they so popular and successful? I know marketing has a lot to do with it, but most all of their beers are awful and leave the nastiest aftertastes. It's just bad. I'm always suckered into buying something new of theirs and get pissed off thinking it'll be different, but it never is.

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Eh? Sam Adams is good beer. Not sure where you're coming from, unless you're a PBR or Budweiser lover.

smccarter said:

Eh? unless you're a PBR or Budweiser lover.

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sam adam's does indeed suck

It sucks if you consider it being world class beer and its bottled and sells insane amounts of barrels.Maybe they are doing something right? I hated some of their stuff before but since trying alot of it and you should try all of them before deciding if you havent already. I tried one or two porters when I was a noob and because of the certain porters I tried I sterotyped them and all a sudden hated all porters even though I only tried one or two.

I seem to like some Sam Adams and love some ,and then hate some. Alot of beer styles I think they really nail. It is more traditional style but generally refined and nice clean and tastey. But some to todays standards? Probably not most of the time.The bar has been raised and extremely so,and there is limitless potential. Most or alot of their regulars are just not new school craft beer if you want to call it that. Classic refined and tradtional. Maybe suck? Well its still just a matter of opinion. Either people suck or miller light budweiser coors sucks. If it really did suck would it sell? or maybe to just suckers? Its some sort of magic trick for brainwashing peoples palates to only like light beer? yES APPARANTLEY throughout the last century. What am I trying to say... I dont really know where Im going with this now. anymore.

Sam Adams is a solid brewery. They brew good safe beer that a lot of people like.

If you compare Sam to Stone or Dogfish they coudln't be more different. Where Sam plays it safe and follows trends like a smart corporation DFH and Stone take big gambles while keeping their cores consistent.

I don't drink Sam Adams. Nor do I drink any Jacob Leinenkugel products even though it is local to me.

Are they bad beers? I don't know because I stopped drinking them a long time ago.

Why? Well, it is simple. There are so many options available today.

Why is that? IMHO it was the Sam Adams and the old Leinenkugel brewery's of the world that stepped out front and brought back the search for quality and difference.

I still think Sam uses Fleischmanns for their ale yeast

I agree that Sam Adams does some beers well, others not so much. So, no I don't agree that they all have some off-flavor. If that were the case, and it was that much of a problem, they wouldn't be selling the beer they do.

I don't expect to be blown away by beers from Sam Adams, but they are for the most part pretty good and I especially like Latitude 48.

I have not liked most of their beers I have drank . I might also add in that their marketing campaign with the Declaration of Independence pissed me off and got them a nasty letter from me and I no longer try any of their beers

It's probably the contract brewers they use that yield to the Sam Adams whang. God knows who is brewing this stuff.

I can only hate on Sam to a point, Jim Koch did a lot for craft beer. I give him the same credit as Papazian for bringing craft to the forefront. That being said there is something wrong with the ales, but Boston lager is still one of my favorites and a well made beer.

You can rely on Boston Lager and their flagship seasonals (Alpine Spring, Summer Ale, Oktoberfest, Holiday Porter) to be decent, drinkable beers.

I'm drinking a SA Imperial Stout as I type this. It's an excellent beer IMO, and readily available at the grocery store 2 min from my house.

Their Summer Ale was my "gateway" into the world of craft brewing...

I find them hit or miss. Not a fan of their Boston Lager, but like their Latitude 48, Noble Pils and the newish Double Agent IPL

Noble Pils is one of the best beers around.

I love Sam Adams beer. Of course, I'm comparing it to Bud, Coors, and some of that other garbage out there.

I can smell the contract in this.