How Do I Make an Extract Flanders Red/Sour Ale?

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cmdrico7812

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My wife and I both love Rodenbach Grand Cru as well as Duchess. I've been wanting to experiment in making a sour ale similar to these at home as an extract version. There's this recipe in the database, but I need some help with it. Could someone help clarify this a little or share experiences they've had making an extract or PM version of a sour ale? The big question I have with the Gilda recipe I linked to is when do I add the lactose? Any additional instructions to the Gilda recipe or a new recipe anyone has for a sour ale would be great. Thanks so much!
 
Lactose is unfermentable, so you can add it whenever you feel most comfortable. Adding it to the boil will help dissolve it, or if you're not sure how much sweetness you want, you can try adding it at bottling, but it can be difficult to get it to dissolve.

That recipe you linked to already is a partial mash. If you can't mash that much with your PM method, you can reduce the amount of 2 row and increase the amount of extract until it works for you.
 
Thanks for your advice. I will most likely add it to the boil. I have the ability to do a PM that size so that shouldn't be an issue.

My other question (that I forgot to post before) is about obtaining the sourness. So, according to the recipe, the acid malt combined with the lactose and long fermenting and conditioning period will produce the sour nature of a flanders red, correct?

Thanks so much.
 
My other question (that I forgot to post before) is about obtaining the sourness. So, according to the recipe, the acid malt combined with the lactose and long fermenting and conditioning period will produce the sour nature of a flanders red, correct?

The acidulated malt does contribute some sourness, but it really comes from the souring organisms that are part of the Roeselare yeast strain. The long aging gives ample time for the souring bacteria to work.
 
Perfect. Thank you so much. I forgot to mention the yeast strain in my summary of how the souring is produced. I feel more confident in making this now. Thanks again.
 
I hope you've got a year to wait. I've followed jamil's instructions on fermenting out with WLP-001 or US-05 and then racking onto the Brett/Rosalare/Lambic whatever you want to use. It will take at least 4 months before it starts souring.
 
Lactose is unfermentable by beer yeast. It will ferment in this recipe and is there precisely to insure that there is plenty for the other organisms to eat.
 
I'm willing to wait. Sours are my favorite and it'll be worth it, as long as I don't screw it up.

Are you talking about repitching the Rosalare when racking to secondary?
 
From what I understand, someone correct me if I am mistaken, there are certain Brett strains that will indeed eat lactose; which would increase the sourness in this beer.

Additionally, it could be that is the lactic bacterias, which I believe are in the Roselare blend, that will consume the lactose and convert it into an additional form of sourness.

edit: I guess I forgot to say that since it is a form of sourness, if it were me, I would add the lactose either in the boil or with the roselare blend.
 
I'm willing to wait. Sours are my favorite and it'll be worth it, as long as I don't screw it up.

Are you talking about repitching the Rosalare when racking to secondary?

There are two methods to pitching the Roselare blend in your Flanders.
For a little less sour, ferment using a yeast like 1056, US-05 or WLP001 then pitch the Roselare in the secondary. For a little more sour (probably closer to Gran Cru) pitch the Roselare in the primary after cooling. I have done the later in my Flander's Red but it sill has a good pellicle so I don't know how the results will be.

Lactose is not necessary but I believe it is there to feed the bacteria and brett during the long souring. The beer yeast cannot eat it. Therefore if you want to use Lactose (or Maltodextrin) add it to the end of the boil.

This will take the better part of the year to ferment. I pitched my bugs in July and still have a good pellicle.

Craig
 
I'd like to do the later and get something more sour like Rodenbach's Grand Cru. If I want to do that route, simply pitch the Roselare in the primary after it cools, right? If I use this method, can I still follow the fermenting schedule in the Gilda recipe? (30 days in Primary, 1 year in Secondary, and 180 days in Tertiary on the oak), or should it be something different?
 
FYI on the Roeselare....I believe it was a VSS release and most likely not be available anymore. There are other options for you though.
 
FYI on the Roeselare....I believe it was a VSS release and most likely not be available anymore. There are other options for you though.


I believe they will be releasing it again in April. I remember seeing something to that effect. There's always bottle-harvesting!

I'm emailing Wyeast to see if I can get confirmation.
 
I fermented on straight US-05 for one week to an FG of about 1.013, filled a wine barrel and pitched a 5 gallon starter of lambic blend. Eleven months later it was at 1.000 and tasting mighty fine.
 
I fermented on straight US-05 for one week to an FG of about 1.013, filled a wine barrel and pitched a 5 gallon starter of lambic blend. Eleven months later it was at 1.000 and tasting mighty fine.

5 gallon starter, was this a group brew?
 
So if the Roeselare isn't available, which strain should I use that will give me relatively the same level of sourness?

Any blend that says "Lambic blend" will work. You could also use a mix of the wyeast 5112 (belgian brett strain) and 5335 (Lactobacillus).
 
I'd like to do the later and get something more sour like Rodenbach's Grand Cru. If I want to do that route, simply pitch the Roselare in the primary after it cools, right? If I use this method, can I still follow the fermenting schedule in the Gilda recipe? (30 days in Primary, 1 year in Secondary, and 180 days in Tertiary on the oak), or should it be something different?

Not sure what schedule you should use however I decided to use a 6gal better bottle for a primary and pitched the Lambic blend (Roselare) with oak cubes on brew day after cooling. I will leave it in that container until the pellicle falls, then bottle.

One motivation of mine was to keep the bugs contained to limited equipment as much as possible. However if this tastes halfway decent at bottling I will probably try to reuse the yeast and bugs in another similar brew right away.

As for the yeast, I believe it will be released again this spring for a limited time. Or you can use a Lambic blend. The Lambic blends contain a similar blend of bugs but I believe the yeast is a different strain.

Craig
 
Thanks for this. How long does it take for the pellicle to fall? How does a pellicle differ from a kreusen?

+1 for limiting the amount of contact with your equipment. That makes sense.
 
Thanks for this. How long does it take for the pellicle to fall? How does a pellicle differ from a kreusen?

+1 for limiting the amount of contact with your equipment. That makes sense.

Mine is still holding up at about 7 months. Reports are anywhere from 4 months to a year. At least one person made a lambic in 2 months.

Pellicles are more solid looking instead of foamy. Much less gas is produced during the souring. At least in my case it is more white and looks fuzzy. Sort of like a mold growing on the surface.

Maybe it is a mold and I will have a nasty beer when done, but I am hoping for the best.

Craig
 
I believe they will be releasing it again in April. I remember seeing something to that effect. There's always bottle-harvesting!

I'm emailing Wyeast to see if I can get confirmation.

It took Wyeast a few days to get back to me, but I have news to report; the email in response to my question regarding the re-release of Roselare blend.

Jason,

Yes!

We will be releasing this beginning April 1st. We have had such a huge demand for this blend, don’t be surprised to see it available year round after the spring release.

Prost!
Brian Perkey, Customer Service Manager

Oh happy day! :D
 
FWIW, Wyeast Lambic blend and Roeselare contain the same organisms/yeasts, just at different rates. Brian has stated that you could use the Lambic blend is Roeselare isn't available with minimal changes in the final results.
 
FWIW, Wyeast Lambic blend and Roeselare contain the same organisms/yeasts, just at different rates. Brian has stated that you could use the Lambic blend is Roeselare isn't available with minimal changes in the final results.

Yup. Good to know that the Roeselare blend is being re-released just the same!
 
FWIW, Wyeast Lambic blend and Roeselare contain the same organisms/yeasts, just at different rates. Brian has stated that you could use the Lambic blend is Roeselare isn't available with minimal changes in the final results.

Can you point me to where you found that information?

From the Wyeast website it does list the same organisms, however the Lambic blend lists a Belgian style wheat beer yeast while I thought the Roselare blend used a neutral yeast (suggesting American Ale yeast). Also i don't believe Roselare had sherry yeast.

Now it is possible i am mistaken as I no longer can find any information about Roselare.

Craig
 
Can you point me to where you found that information?

From the Wyeast website it does list the same organisms, however the Lambic blend lists a Belgian style wheat beer yeast while I thought the Roselare blend used a neutral yeast (suggesting American Ale yeast). Also i don't believe Roselare had sherry yeast.

Now it is possible i am mistaken as I no longer can find any information about Roselare.

Craig

Yes, I see the differences as well. It was a post Brian Perkey made on the TBN forums:

Brian Perkey said:
shhhhh!! here's a secret....the Wyeast 3278 Lambic Blend is the same stuff as the Roselare, just slight variations on the amount of the brett strains.
 
Thank you search!! I've been looking for this, as I want to try the same. I'm gonna try to get an order in for Roselare when its available, and get it going. The waiting will be the hardest part!
 
Well I brewed the Flanders Red on Tuesday. Here is what I did:

Recipe (this is the Gilda PM Recipe from the Recipe Library)
2 lb Belgian 2 row Pale Malt
10 oz. German Vienna Malt
8 oz. Belgian Cara Vienna Malt
4 oz. Acid Malt
3 oz. Chocolate Malt
3 lbs Light DME
1 lb. Clear Candi Sugar
2 oz. Lactose

.05 oz. Styrian Goldings (60 min.)
.05 oz. Brewer's Gold (15 min.)
.05 oz. Kent Goldings (3 min.)

2 oz. Stavin Med. Toast French Oak Cubes
Yeast: Wyeast Lambic Blend

I mashed all of the grain in 2 gallons of water for 60 min. at 155 degrees then sparged with 2 gallons of water at 170 degrees for 12 minutes (I used the methodology outlined by DeathBrewer here).

Then I combined the mash water and the sparge water (which was about 3.5 gallons) and brought it to a boil. Just before it boiled I added the DME, candi sugar, and lactose (I probably shouldn't have added this until the end of the boil, but next time I will).

I added the hops on schedule. I had placed the oak chips in water in the fridge for about 4 hours and then during the boil, I brought the oak chips to a boil and then strained off the water.

At the end of the boil I took the whole thing outside and put the kettle in the snow to cool then brought it inside and topped off the kettle, to bring the total volume to 5 gallons, with ice cold water to help with the cooling.

I added the oak chips to a 6.5 gallon carboy, then poured the wort through a strainer into the carboy. Half way through I added the Wyeast Lambic Blend yeast and then finished straining in the rest of the wort. Plugged it and put it in the airlock.

It's now fermenting nicely, lots of activity but a small kreusen. The temperature is about 65 degrees (there's no consistently warm place in my house because I don't like paying an arm and a leg for heat so we turn the furnace down during the day).

Any thoughts on this or things I could do differently next time or do you see anything that will totally screw this batch for me? Thanks.
 
I don't think I'm going to rack to a secondary given CBBaron's earlier advice at reducing any potential contamination by keeping it in as few vessels as possible. I know that's probably a bit paranoid, but I'd hate to wait a year to drink this only to find out something went wrong during a transfer.

I do plan on making another one of these in a few months when the Roselere yeast is released again.
 
I would rack to a secondary since you are aging for a year. You won't want to leave your beer on trub for that long.
Oaking during fermentation? Any thoughts on this.
 
You pretty much have to go to a secondary with this if you're going to leave it for a long time. Yeast autolysis will give you some nasty, nasty flavors if you don't get the beer off it. You basically will have your beer sitting on decomposing dead bodies. A lovely thought!
 
Didn't think of that. Good call. So since I put the oak in the primary, should I put more oak in the secondary? I guess I could taste at the time and see how I like it.

How long should I leave it in the primary? 30 days?
 
I wouldn't keep it any longer than two weeks in the primary... I'm not sure at what point autolysis starts, but there's not really any reason to keep it on the trub for any longer than necessary. You basically only want it there to absorb any diacetyl or other stuff that the yeast throws, and then later reabsorbs... once that is done, you want to get the beer off of it.

And I agree, checking the oak flavor at the transfer point would be good. You could also just take out the oak chunks you have, rinse off the trub, give em a quick blast with sanitizer, and back into the secondary. No need to use new oak.
 
I wouldn't keep it any longer than two weeks in the primary... I'm not sure at what point autolysis starts, but there's not really any reason to keep it on the trub for any longer than necessary. You basically only want it there to absorb any diacetyl or other stuff that the yeast throws, and then later reabsorbs... once that is done, you want to get the beer off of it

Two weeks is far too early for autolysis to set in. I regularly leave moderate-gravity beers in primary for a month.
 
Two weeks is far too early for autolysis to set in. I regularly leave moderate-gravity beers in primary for a month.

Ah, ok. Good to know.


I was looking through MoreBeer's kits (they have some awesome stuff!) and saw this- a partial mash kit version of Jamil's Flanders Red! I was planning on putting this together, but I'm lazy. :D I'm going to pick up an extra bucket, and get this going ASAP since it takes so long:

Flanders Red Ale- Mini Mash | MoreBeer
 
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