Tweaking Hop Schedule Timing for Max Aroma/Flavor

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Evan!

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I posted this in my "Might Gon Brew Sum Pliny T'nite" thread, but I need more feedback than I'm liable to get buried in there, so it gets its own thread now.

Anyway, check it out, let me know what you think. This is still a monster. What I'm most interested in is the flavor and aroma hop additions. Any and all help is GREATLY appreciated, because I want a hop bomb...not just bitterness, but taste and smell too. Hardcore! Also, am I wasting hops by going above 100 IBU's? I know that supposedly we can't detect anything over 100, but...then why is Pliny at like 250+?

Code:
The Arsenal

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

14-C  India Pale Ale, Imperial IPA

Min OG:  1.075   Max OG:  1.108
Min IBU:    60   Max IBU:   100
Min Clr:     8   Max Clr:    15  Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):         5.50    Wort Size (Gal):    5.50
Total Grain (Lbs):       15.50
Anticipated OG:          1.086    Plato:             20.60
Anticipated SRM:           9.7
Anticipated IBU:         121.8
Brewhouse Efficiency:       78 %
Wort Boil Time:             90    Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate:      15.00    Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:    7.10    Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.066    SG          16.23  Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used:   Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Tinseth
Tinseth Concentration Factor: 1.30

Additional Utilization Used For First Wort Hops: -10 %
Additional Utilization Used For Mash Hoppings:   -30 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 83.9    13.00 lbs. Maris Otter Pale Malt         Great Britain  1.038      3
  6.5     1.00 lbs. Corn Sugar                    Generic        1.046      0
  6.5     1.00 lbs. Victory Malt                  America        1.034     25
  3.2     0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L                   America        1.034     40

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.00 oz.    Cascade                           Whole    5.75  11.7  Mash H
  1.50 oz.    Galena                            Whole   13.00  51.1  First WH
  0.50 oz.    Cascade                           Whole    5.75   8.4  90 min.
  0.50 oz.    Galena                            Whole   13.00  17.7  60 min.
  0.50 oz.    Cascade                           Whole    5.75   7.2  45 min.
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   9.2  35 min.
  1.00 oz.    Cascade                           Whole    5.75  10.9  25 min.
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   5.5  15 min.
  2.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  0 min.
  1.00 oz.    Cascade                           Whole    5.75   0.0  Dry Hop
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  Dry Hop


Extras

  Amount      Name                           Type      Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  0.50 Oz     Oak Cubes - American, House To Other      7 Days(fermenter) 


Yeast
-----

DCL Yeast US-56 Safeale American Ale Yeast


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Multi Step

Grain Lbs:   14.50
Water Qts:   18.13 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:    4.53 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.25 - Before Additional Infusions

Acid Rest Temp :               0  Time:   0
Protein Rest Temp :            0  Time:   0
Intermediate Rest Temp :     133  Time:  20
Saccharification Rest Temp : 152  Time:  70
Mash-out Rest Temp :         158  Time:  20
Sparge Temp :                170  Time:  10


Total Mash Volume Gal: 5.69 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit
 
Evan! said:
Also, am I wasting hops by going above 100 IBU's?

120 isn't too bad. With a high OG and high IBU count, the calcs start to get wonky anyways, so its hard to tell if that will be the actual IBUs in the beer. If you want more flavor/aroma, add more hops in the last 15 to 0 minutes of the boil.

That's alot of hops. You could easily get the same IBUs and flavors/aromas by adding hops at 90 minutes and the rest at 15 to 0 min. However, having so many additions will increase the complexity.

I added just 1/2 oz of Cascade dryhopping into my 90 minute clone, and its super grapefruity. It may do the same to yours.
 
I'm also thinking about getting rid of the late cascade and going with willamette exclusively for flavor and aroma. I've got a bunch of it in inventory, and I'd like to really showcase it.
 
Jamil did an article on adding just a ton of hops in the 20-0 range and no bittering for a huge hop flavor and aroma. Ohiobrutus posted a link to it not too long ago. I intend to try it, that is the Evil twin Red recipe he posted(jamil)
It sounds interesting, you might want to look into it.
 
Yeah, that's a thought, but in order to achieve the hop bitterness I want, I would probably have to add twice as much hops during that period due to the reduced utilization...and adding a pound and a half of hops to one beer isn't the best idea with hops running at least $20 per pound, and that's if you're buying in bulk---more like $25-$30/lb if you're buying smaller quantities.

Sounds like a good idea, though, if you wanted a not-so-bitter beer with tons of hop flavor and aroma.
 
I'm guessing that you're going for a strong citrus/floral presence which works very well in an IIPA, but I personally don't care much for Cascade and prefer to use Amarillo.

I don't think that you're wasting hops by going over 100 IBU, but it depends on what you're end goal is. If you want a true hop bomb you may want to consider a single large addition at 90 with larger additions at 15 and 5. If you really want to kick up the aroma you might want to dryhop more heavily as well.

Do you soak your oak cubes in liquor before you use them?
 
I personally like cascade, but I have done away with the late additions and gone all Willamette after the 60 min galena add:

Code:
The Destroyer of Worlds

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

14-C  India Pale Ale, Imperial IPA

Min OG:  1.075   Max OG:  1.108
Min IBU:    60   Max IBU:   100
Min Clr:     8   Max Clr:    15  Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):         5.50    Wort Size (Gal):    5.50
Total Grain (Lbs):       16.00
Anticipated OG:          1.088    Plato:             21.19
Anticipated SRM:           9.8
Anticipated IBU:         131.8
Brewhouse Efficiency:       78 %
Wort Boil Time:             90    Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate:      15.00    Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:    7.10    Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.068    SG          16.70  Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used:   Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Tinseth
Tinseth Concentration Factor: 1.30

Additional Utilization Used For First Wort Hops: -10 %
Additional Utilization Used For Mash Hoppings:   -30 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 84.4    13.50 lbs. Maris Otter Pale Malt         Great Britain  1.038      3
  4.7     0.75 lbs. Corn Sugar                    Generic        1.046      0
  6.3     1.00 lbs. Victory Malt                  America        1.034     25
  3.1     0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L                   America        1.034     40
  1.6     0.25 lbs. Sucanat                       Generic        1.046      1

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.00 oz.    Cascade                           Whole    5.75  11.5  Mash H
  1.50 oz.    Galena                            Whole   13.00  50.2  First WH
  0.50 oz.    Cascade                           Whole    5.75   8.2  90 min.
  1.00 oz.    Galena                            Whole   13.00  34.7  60 min.
  0.50 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   5.0  45 min.
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   9.1  35 min.
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   7.6  25 min.
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   5.4  15 min.
  2.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  0 min.
  2.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  Dry Hop
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  Dry Hop


Extras

  Amount      Name                           Type      Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  0.50 Oz     Oak Cubes - American, House To Other      7 Days(fermenter) 


Yeast
-----

DCL Yeast US-56 Safeale American Ale Yeast


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Multi Step

Grain Lbs:   15.00
Water Qts:   18.76 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:    4.69 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.25 - Before Additional Infusions

Acid Rest Temp :               0  Time:   0
Protein Rest Temp :            0  Time:   0
Intermediate Rest Temp :     133  Time:  20
Saccharification Rest Temp : 152  Time:  70
Mash-out Rest Temp :         158  Time:  20
Sparge Temp :                170  Time:  10


Total Mash Volume Gal: 5.89 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
 
If you really want that bold hop aroma and flavor, you need to concentrate more of those hops towards the end of your boil. Adding at 35 and 45 minutes won't give you anything like adding at 5 or 10 minutes. Those later additions are where you get that bold but smooth hop character.


TL
 
Do you think mash hopping is really worth it?

You're getting 11IBU's from that 1oz and 8 from .5oz at 90 min...
 
That's always been what I've thought too, and then someone said yesterday that you should concentrate on the 20 and flameout additions and not worry about anything in between. This is supposedly the reason why the Pliny the Elder recipe has additions at 90, 45, 30 and 0...and from what I hear, that's the king of hop bombs. Anyone speak to this?
 
Posted this "next door," but I'll put it here as well:

Pliny has 68 IBUs. They calculated it by gas chromatograph at one of the Washington hop seminars. I hate quoting it for all my references, but this is talked about on the IIPA Jamil show where they go over the Pliny clone.
 
Evan! said:
That's always been what I've thought too, and then someone said yesterday that you should concentrate on the 20 and flameout additions and not worry about anything in between. This is supposedly the reason why the Pliny the Elder recipe has additions at 90, 45, 30 and 0...and from what I hear, that's the king of hop bombs. Anyone speak to this?

It's not really the king of hop bombs -- you can achieve that by just throwing a bunch of hops around in the wort. It's the king of balance first and foremost, and attenuation, which combine together to accentuate the hop profile: bitterness, flavor, and aroma.
 
PseudoChef said:
Posted this "next door," but I'll put it here as well:

Pliny has 68 IBUs. They calculated it by gas chromatograph at one of the Washington hop seminars. I hate quoting it for all my references, but this is talked about on the IIPA Jamil show where they go over the Pliny clone.

Do you have a link to this information, by chance?
 
OK, let's try one more time...

Code:
The Destroyer of Worlds

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

14-C  India Pale Ale, Imperial IPA

Min OG:  1.075   Max OG:  1.108
Min IBU:    60   Max IBU:   100
Min Clr:     8   Max Clr:    15  Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):         5.50    Wort Size (Gal):    5.50
Total Grain (Lbs):       16.00
Anticipated OG:          1.088    Plato:             21.19
Anticipated SRM:           9.8
Anticipated IBU:         129.1
Brewhouse Efficiency:       78 %
Wort Boil Time:             90    Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate:      15.00    Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:    7.10    Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.068    SG          16.70  Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used:   Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Tinseth
Tinseth Concentration Factor: 1.30
Additional Utilization Used For Mash Hoppings:   -30 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 84.4    13.50 lbs. Maris Otter Pale Malt         Great Britain  1.038      3
  4.7     0.75 lbs. Corn Sugar                    Generic        1.046      0
  6.3     1.00 lbs. Victory Malt                  America        1.034     25
  3.1     0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L                   America        1.034     40
  1.6     0.25 lbs. Sucanat                       Generic        1.046      1

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.50 oz.    Cascade                           Whole    5.75  17.3  Mash H
  2.50 oz.    Galena                            Whole   13.00  92.9  90 min.
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   8.4  30 min.
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   6.6  20 min.
  0.50 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   2.7  15 min.
  0.50 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   1.1  5 min.
  2.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  0 min.
  2.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  Dry Hop
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  Dry Hop


Extras

  Amount      Name                           Type      Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  0.50 Oz     Oak Cubes - American, House To Other      7 Days(fermenter) 


Yeast
-----

DCL Yeast US-56 Safeale American Ale Yeast


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Multi Step

Grain Lbs:   15.00
Water Qts:   18.76 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:    4.69 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.25 - Before Additional Infusions

Acid Rest Temp :               0  Time:   0
Protein Rest Temp :            0  Time:   0
Intermediate Rest Temp :     133  Time:  20
Saccharification Rest Temp : 152  Time:  70
Mash-out Rest Temp :         158  Time:  20
Sparge Temp :                170  Time:  10


Total Mash Volume Gal: 5.89 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
 
I really like the way that looks...nice simple malt bill, and the additions should provide some excellent hop characteristics. Not familiar with Williamette, yet, but I think you're covering your bases.
 
PseudoChef said:
I really like the way that looks...nice simple malt bill, and the additions should provide some excellent hop characteristics. Not familiar with Willamette, yet, but I think you're covering your bases.
Williamette is basically just Fuggles (wiki).

That's a nice looking (if expensive!) recipe. :mug:
 
Jamil on his website has two articles that might help. According to him you get big hop flavor and aroma hop in the last 20, 10 5, 1 minutes. But he also claims that in order to preserve the flavors and aromas you need to drop the finished wort temperature very quickly. He has another article about that. Of course I've never tried any of this. But thought it was intriguing enough to try.

Your recipe looks like the hops might do the trick, if you can drop the wort temperature quick enough.
 
bradsul said:
Williamette is basically just Fuggles (wiki).

That's a nice looking (if expensive!) recipe. :mug:

Actually, I got the willamette, cascade and galena from HopsDirect just before the price jump. I paid roughly $11/lb...but you know HopsDirect's "pound" measurements. More like 28oz for $11. Meaning this brew, with 12oz of hops, will run under $5 for the hop bill.

:ban:
 
Thanks to Short Drive, I read up on late additions at mrmalty.com. Since I'm trying for a really huge bitterness to go along with the flavor & aroma, and I don't want to have to add twice as much hops, I'm still going with an early bittering addition---but I've changed the schedule a little bit based on Jamil's suggestions. I moved the galena addition to 60 minutes and upped it to 3oz. I got rid of the 30 minute addition and loaded up the end a bit more. I also upped the batch size to 6 gallons because, as Jamil notes, I'm going to lose a substantial amount of wort in those 12.5oz of hops...

Code:
The Destroyer of Worlds

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

14-C  India Pale Ale, Imperial IPA

Min OG:  1.075   Max OG:  1.108
Min IBU:    60   Max IBU:   100
Min Clr:     8   Max Clr:    15  Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):         6.00    Wort Size (Gal):    6.00
Total Grain (Lbs):       17.50
Anticipated OG:          1.088    Plato:             21.20
Anticipated SRM:           9.6
Anticipated IBU:         127.1
Brewhouse Efficiency:       78 %
Wort Boil Time:             90    Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate:      15.00    Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:    7.74    Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.069    SG          16.71  Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used:   Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Tinseth
Tinseth Concentration Factor: 1.30
Additional Utilization Used For Mash Hoppings:   -30 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 85.7    15.00 lbs. Maris Otter Pale Malt         Great Britain  1.038      3
  5.7     1.00 lbs. Victory Malt                  America        1.034     25
  4.3     0.75 lbs. Corn Sugar                    Generic        1.046      0
  2.9     0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L                   America        1.034     40
  1.4     0.25 lbs. Sucanat                       Generic        1.046      1

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.50 oz.    Cascade                           Whole    5.75  15.8  Mash H
  3.00 oz.    Galena                            Whole   13.00  95.5  60 min.
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   6.1  20 min.
  2.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   7.3  10 min.
  1.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   2.0  5 min.
  0.50 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.4  2 min.
  2.00 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  0 min.
  1.50 oz.    Willamette                        Whole    4.10   0.0  Dry Hop


Extras

  Amount      Name                           Type      Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  0.50 Oz     Oak Cubes - American, House To Other      7 Days(fermenter) 


Yeast
-----

DCL Yeast US-56 Safeale American Ale Yeast


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Multi Step

Grain Lbs:   16.50
Water Qts:   18.76 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:    4.69 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.14 - Before Additional Infusions

Acid Rest Temp :               0  Time:   0
Protein Rest Temp :            0  Time:   0
Intermediate Rest Temp :     133  Time:  20
Saccharification Rest Temp : 152  Time:  70
Mash-out Rest Temp :         158  Time:  20
Sparge Temp :                170  Time:  10


Total Mash Volume Gal: 6.01 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
 

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